1841 census.

[Rosinish]

We all love to solve a mystery and are all keen to help but as Annie says, we do need to know the work you have done to reach your conclusions & the sources. Any questions asked are for clarification or to lead us on/eliminate another route.

Yes Rosie...

Of course we do (nothing better to be honest) but working with a scenario where our "hands are tied" through lack of info. doesn't help 

My geography isn't great but I noted.....

What about this one living Southall Hayes Middlesex

Head of house is an innkeeper

Several names including John West 40 think it says horse keeper

Could be his link to taverns if this is he

Not to be dismissed in my opinion as he may have been a "good candidate" for a Waiter's job but needed "a foot in the door" 1st for a vacancy (possibly known at the time) of taking on the "Horse Keeper" job 
Anything is possible & can't be discluded at this time unless he's found elsewhere.
Possibility is in favour as the "tips" possibly in the area may have been good if he was to succeed in becoming a Waiter there....now with 3 kids 

Not sure as I say with areas, how well off an area it was etc. but worth a look at as to how good a place & how far from home as well as the fact that they may well have been estranged....in my opinion there are strong possibilities of this being "John" but I haven't looked elsewhere 

Annie

[Rosinish]

Where did you read of waiters giving themselves a quick name?

Josey

Josey,

Interesting question as "Will" would be as short (if not shorter) than "John" 

My personal thought is that William John & John are 2 different people (same surname)....without clarification as to the contrary 

May well have been related but...who knows until we get more info from toots 

Annie

[Ruskie]

Some good questions and observations.

Back at reply #7 I asked what John's name was on children's baptisms (if given). As we all know occupations could and did change, sometimes substantially.

Re William John. In all his dealings John and his family have all called him 'John'.

Regarding the name. You are looking at events that occurred in the early 19th century, so I don't know how you can confidently state that his family called him John. There can't be many surviving documents which refer to him at all, let alone refer to him as John, and documents already mentioned refer to him as William John.

[amondg]

The daughter Rosina Eliza was baptized 6 August 1837 at St John the Evangelist Lambeth fathers name was John West, waiter of Little Surrey Street. Mother Sarah  in the margin born July 1837.

Added
As John was a waiter he may not have worked 9-5. A large hotel would have waiters
serving till all hours, did Sarah think he would be counted at work re: 1841.

[12tootsi34]

He is down as being a waiter at taverns. These establishments were open at all hours. A waiter had to pay the owner to work at his tavern. He got his pay from the tips that were given to him. Even if he was at work he would have been included in that establishments entry, and from my investigation there are none. Where he lived it would have been only some 50 minutes walk if he worked in the city. As you probable are aware Taverns were a special place where wine was drunk and a hot meal was provided on the hour at most hours. Cannot find any detail of him at these establishments, whether being called 'John or Will'. In the 1841 census certain areas were lost, some including those around the St Luke's area where many Taverns were. Probably he was included in one of these. Ta for the information.

[Rosinish]

He is down as being a waiter at taverns.
In the 1841 census certain areas were lost, some including those around the St Luke's area where many Taverns were. Probably he was included in one of these. Ta for the information.

   I suppose that sums it up then....

"In the 1841 census certain areas were lost"

"Probably he was included in one of these"

And easier than answering the questions you haven't given replies to 

Annie

[Ruskie]

Do you have some information which indicates that John worked in a Tavern in the City?

Presuming he worked in St Lukes because he cannot be found may be jumping to the wrong conclusion.

It might be helpful if you made up a timeline of all "events" that you have for John, and note his:
- Name (ie John or William John)
- Address
- Occupation exactly as it appears, and
- the specific event eg baptism of child, marriage etc.

Sometimes setting it out this way can clarify things. 

[Rosinish]

Ruskie....

I can answer 1 of those questions:

There is no occupation given on the marriage I looked at (if it's the correct 1)?

John West
Sarah Maria Haydon
Married 12 Sep 1824 - St George, Bloomsbury

Annie

[Rosinish]

There are 3 baptisms 27 Nov 1836 but father is William John waiter Surrey Street.

Children Lewis John - William ? - Sarah Ann Maria

Millie,

Can you tell us where the baptisms took place please ?

I've found a possibility of my theory being wrong.

I thought William John & John may have been 2 different people (same surname) & a 2nd marriage for Sarah but I'm now thinking there's a possibility of them being the same person using 2 different names/occupations when it suits him 

More to add later as I'm still digging 


Annie