Author Topic: But ..what happened to the babies ...?  (Read 16549 times)

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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #90 on: Thursday 28 October 21 14:23 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your interest Dulcie and
For your offer of facial recognition help
At the time i posted it was a different close up profile of my grandmother
I.ll send you the link to my ancestry tree so you can see photos
Or via email

Update : look at the bbc blog by Richard Tisdale in reply 79

He did contact me a while back because there was going to be a TV show about this story but another story got chosen instead .

May not be any help but there's a marriage 1908 of a 'L.J.' to a J. Hirschmann in London, the 1911 census gives the wife as L.J.Hirschmann

The man says he's German

There's an older female relative with them called ROBERTS...
(apologies I'm working from memory, will go back to the records shortly)

Therefore it seems to be a female L.J.Roberts who married him...?
L[ottie] J?

The husband of 3 years is working as a waiter at Grand Hotel

L.J. Hirschmann's birthplace is given as Oswestry Shrops, however when you're changing your name all the time but want to preserve some truth (which is instinctive), then Oswestry holds the same weight as Shrewsbury as a Shropshire town.

There is a descendant of this marriage in someone's tree on Ancestry. Fred? I will go back and check.
D

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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #91 on: Thursday 28 October 21 14:44 BST (UK) »
We found our charlotte in 1911 +on boats to USA and back around Ww1 + in 1939 + her legitimate grandson filled me in on bits of her life
Tho we dont know where she was between march 1900 and 1905

So i didnt persue Shropshire Charlotte tho i do have a tree for her adopted daughter Jessie Smith became  Ball
There are no living descendants from my research .



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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #92 on: Thursday 28 October 21 21:26 BST (UK) »
 ive decided to add Harry Kitchen and his line  as a floating branch to Adopted Jessie Smith  tree on ancestry

his descendants knew nothing of his story

i could also add any of the other names of birth fathers or mothers that were included in the news report

for anyone who strongly believes their ancestor is one of these babies ..
 coming across an unexpected name cluster or strong unexpected  irish ethnicity

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/108808668/family?cfpid=420096779255

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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #93 on: Thursday 28 October 21 22:37 BST (UK) »
i cant find my original research on the Kitching family
i know i found harry/henry with his grandparents

*But found information leading to a living descendant now.
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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #94 on: Thursday 28 October 21 22:53 BST (UK) »
ive found the kitching family in 1891 Lily was 2 and had 4 siblings Flossie James H annie +Rose

father Tom was a labourer
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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #95 on: Saturday 30 October 21 00:12 BST (UK) »
news reports were published in wales and as far as australia

im trawling through them again to find any names of witnesses tho i know they were mostly kept secret

i.ll write a summary as the topic is long and some theories can be dismissed

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/175927327

heres a report from australia

its interesting to compare the tone of the papers ..quite a few were sympathetic to the couple and they were treated " leniently " because they had helped other young ladies in an indelicate situation and prevented one from throwing herself in the Mersey .

My grandmother was not one of the babies in the court case ..her mother Lottie Roberts had left her with a friend ..from her dressmakers work or her lovers fathers drapers business
the friend was a 30 year old single shirtmaker  living with her 60 year old parents who took over Maisies care in 1906 when their daughter died . we believe the father paid the maintenance that he was ordered at least for the first few years and may well have paid the family directly

Maisie had a good live and her foster father had been a workhouse child himself so saved her from that fate .

the baby who was brought to court and proven to be Charlotte ROBERTS /BOURNE own child was Jessie SMITH born Swansea 1906 Herbert SMITH aka Leo Selwyn was registered as father but in court repeatedly denied it .

i think he was reputed father of one of the other babies .need to reread  ALL the articles .

Jessie was brought in by the adoptive mother and was a testement to how well cared for she was and that good homes had been chosen for the children .

even one birth father testified in the couples favour .

 Mrs Francis KITCHEN may have been witness for prosecution initially it looks as if she was angry about the amount of money the couple wanted .
The KITCHINGS  had paid £11 to cover baby Harry's care but the couple later requested travel expenses .

the formidable grandma may have raised Harry as her daughter married in 1909 and had a legitimate daughter . harry was with grandparents in 1911 .
trees on Ancestry dont know who his fater is ..one has the brother
on his marriage certificate he gave fathers name as harry KITCHING ..I wonder if there is a Harry LEIGHTON in the vicinity

Jessies story  is similar to my grandmothers

probably 2 different Lottie ROBERTS but although we do now know what became of OUR Lottie the years between 1900 - 1907 are a mystery

+ there doesnt seem to be a suitable candidate for a shropshire born waitress turned assisistant to an escapologist  before or after these years .







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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #96 on: Saturday 30 October 21 12:16 BST (UK) »
 
ive changed tree name on ancestry to

"adopted " babies : including  Jessie SMITH/BALL,  KITCHING  + Unknown

do add a comment to the tree if you think your ancestor coule be one of the adoptees im building it up as much as possible
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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #97 on: Wednesday 03 November 21 06:01 GMT (UK) »
Breaking news
Turi KING my DNA. Hero
Will be on BBC radio london at 6.40am British time

They are doing a program asking oublic who is their national treasure.
I phoned in with her name and radioperson was excited to tell me shes this morning guest and asked if they can call me back in next half hour .so im hanging by ohone
Hope to get someone to record it .🧐🐝
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Re: But ..what happened to the babies ...?
« Reply #98 on: Monday 27 February 23 15:25 GMT (UK) »
d guest
Just to let you know I did follow up the hirschmann connection but it wasn't correct because his wife had first name of Lillian .


I can add other floating branches to this tree if anyone has unexplainable DNA matches and suspects a switch/ glitch  in their line

Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson