Where was James Carr Johnson before 1881?

[DavidJP]

Hi all,

I am helping a friend with their family research & have hit the proverbial brick wall! I cannot find anything of the above chap prior to 1881, nor can I find anything at all about his father! Can anyone help?

Apologies for length of the post, but I want get down all that I have re James to avoid duplication. Have also put it on the England board as it covers the counties of Durham, London, Middlesex & Essex.

1881 Census (RG11/63/66/13)

13 Henry? Place, Hammersmith
James Johnson Boarder Unm 25 Gasfitter born Durham, Durham

1883 (19th Aug) Marriage at St George, Bloomsbury, London

James Carr Johnson, 27, Bachelor, Gasfitter, 9, Woburn Mews West, father - William Carr Johnson, Book-keeper
Chrissy Battley, 28, Spinster,          9, Woburn Mews West, father - Henry Richard Battley (deceased), Publican

1885 (Nov 15th) St Stephen, Rochester Row, London

Jane Florence Carr Johnson (b 11th March 1883) & Dolly (Dorothy) Carr Johnson (b 8th Oct 1885) baptised to parents James & Chrissie Johnson of 5, Warwick Place West, St George Hannover Square, London. James a Gasfitter.

1888 (Feb 5th) St Stephen, Rochester Row, London

Frederick James Carr Johnson (b 1888) baptised to parents James Carr & Cissy Johnson of 6, Warwick Place West, St George Hannover Square, London. James a Book Keeper.

1890 daughter Rosina Arden Johnson born, no baptism found as yet.

1891 Census (RG12/73/82/43)

6, Warwick Place West, St George Hannover Square, London

Jas Johnson Head 34 Gasfitter Durham
Crissy   "     Wife 34 Westminster
Florence  "  Dau   7  St Geo Han Sq
Dolly     "  Dau    5  St Geo Han Sq
Fred'k  "  Son    3  St Geo Han Sq
Rosina  " Dau  7mos St Geo Han Sq

1893 (Jul 19th) St Saviours, Pimlico

William Carr Johnson (born 4th May 1893) baptised to parents James Carr & Crissy Johnson of 16, Charlwood Place. James a Gasfitter.

1900 (June 30th) St Saviours, Pimlico

Ida Carr Johnson (born 8th Jan 1900) (birth registered in Dec qtr 1899 tho!) to parents James & Crissy Johnson of 57, ? Street. James a Gas Fitter.

Mar qtr 1900 St Geo H Sq death of Crissy Johnson registered.

Dec qtr 1900 St Geo H Sq (2nd marriage) to Harriet Gunther (Nee' Weeks). Don't have the marriage record as yet.

1901 (RG13/93/40/430

108, Lillington Street, St John, Westminster

J Johnson Head 39 Gas Fitter Durham
J Johnson Wife 32 Collar Button Hole Machinist (The J for first initial does look like a J but should be H)
William Johnson Son 7 London, Pimlico
Charles Gunther 5 London, Pimlico
Dorothy Gunther 4 London, Westminster

Between 1903 & 1908 4 children were baptised at St James The Less, Thorndike St, Westminster. All baptised to James Carr & Harriet Johnson of Lillington Street with James as a Gas Fitter. (Louisa Maud in 1903, Ellen Florence in 1904, Ethel May in 1906 & Ernest Alfred in 1908.)

In 1911 James Carr Johnson is shown as 49 and a Journeyman Gasfitter and Furniture Porter born in County of Durham.

I have them on electoral records between 1907 & 1929 in London.

Harriet dies in Ilford, Essex in 1944 & James I believe dies in 1942 in the same area.

The later census returns James seems to have knocked around 5 years off his age. Also the place of birth is just the county of Durham, no place of birth within the county is actually given.

So, where was James Carr Johnson before 1881, he seems not to exist before that? Also what of his father William Carr Johnson, I cannot find a single record for him, not one! No birth,baptism, marriage, census return, death/burial record nothing!

Can anyone help? Again my apologies re the length of the post. Also I have traced the children of both James marriages forward so don't require that doing, just pushing the Johnson's back.

Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards

David

[groom]

So, where was James Carr Johnson before 1881, he seems not to exist before that? Also what of his father William Carr Johnson, I cannot find a single record for him, not one! No birth,baptism, marriage, census return, death/burial record nothing!

I can't see anything obvious either. I wonder if they were over the border in Scotland?

[DavidJP]

Hi Jan,

So, where was James Carr Johnson before 1881, he seems not to exist before that? Also what of his father William Carr Johnson, I cannot find a single record for him, not one! No birth,baptism, marriage, census return, death/burial record nothing!

I can't see anything obvious either. I wonder if they were over the border in Scotland?

Many thanks for that, have wondered that, but haven't found anything as yet!

Kind regards

David

[keyboard86]

Hi as usual having a go for you, odd that baptism 1888 occ Book Keeper back to Gas Fitter in 1891?
Keyboard86

[DavidJP]

Hi keyboard86,

Hi as usual having a go for you, odd that baptism 1888 occ Book Keeper back to Gas Fitter in 1891?
Keyboard86

I had noticed that myself, giving his father's occupation instead of his own! Most odd! Original of baptism def says book keeper.

Many thanks for looking.

Kind regards

David

[softly softly]

Hi Have you found James and Harriet on the 1939 register and if so what birth date does he give. I have a strong sense that he was born James Carr **** and that his mother remarried a William Johnson and James took his step fathers name. There are quite a few James Carr **** born between 1853-65 in the Newcastle/Durham area and several marriages of William Johnson@s

John

[DavidJP]

Hi John,

Many thanks for your reply, very much appreciated.

I have not been able to find either James or Harriet on the 1939 Register at all. Although I can only use the index search as I currently do not have access to FindMyPast unfortunately.

Harriet Johnson, Formerly Gunther, Nee' Weeks (1868-1944) is known to have died in the Claybury Hospital in Essex, which falls within the Ilford registration district.

From the earlier census returns for James his birth would appear to abt 1855/57 with a death in 1942 aged 85 also in the Ilford registration district. In later censuses James appears to have knocked a few years off of his age (3 years in one and 5 in a couple of others!)

As to your suggestion of his mother perhaps remarrying to a William Johnson and James taking his stepfathers name, it is something that had occurred to me as well. Unfortunately, I have as yet been unable to prove this either way.

Many thanks again.

Kind regards

David

[LizzieL]

Hi keyboard86,

Hi as usual having a go for you, odd that baptism 1888 occ Book Keeper back to Gas Fitter in 1891?
Keyboard86

I had noticed that myself, giving his father's occupation instead of his own! Most odd! Original of baptism def says book keeper.

Many thanks for looking.

Kind regards

David

The vicar probably asked him what the father's occupation was - meaning the father of the child (i.e his own occupation) but he thought he said what is YOUR father's occupation, so he said book keeper. So if it was untrue he had remembered the lie for several years.

[paulbeecham]

I realise this is a really old discussion, but those interested might like to know that there was an American connection. I was told this by my paternal grandmother, who was the first child of James Carr Johnson’s second marriage. Unfortunately, I can’t with certainty say that James was from the USA, but it could explain why there’s no trace of him or his father before 1881. There is at least one Durham in the USA.

Cheers,
Paul.