Author Topic: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions  (Read 2632 times)

Offline OzJen

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 05 January 17 12:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi Shaun,

My fellow is Thomas Carr, convicted on 16 Nov 1842. I'm not sure of his age as I've gathered a variety of birthdates in my travels. He may have been 20 years old at the time of conviction, but he may also have been younger.

Thanks for your help!
Bennett (Aspley Guise & Luton, Beds); Elijah Bambridge (Burslem, Staff); Thomas Carr-Parkhurst boy (Loughrea, Gal'y); Dowle (Romney Marshes, Kent + London); Duffy (Trim, Meath); Joseph Kaye (Mirfield, W.Yks); Leonard (Meath); Mary Mulfahy/Fahy-famine orphan (Nenagh, Tipp'y); Elizabeth Hoskin (Illogan, Cornw); Wm Henry Pearce (Tucking Mill, Cornw, Burra, S.Aust); Ruddell (Kilmore, Armagh); Shepherd (Elstree, Herts); John/Clarissa Short (Bodmin, Cornw); Benjmn Thomas RN 1820s; Wright (Ballylisk).

Online ShaunJ

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 05 January 17 12:44 GMT (UK) »
Thomas Carr aged 12 in early 1843 per the Parkhurst Register. Convicted at Westminster Sessions 16 November 1842 of stealing a bo? (box?) of Figs.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline OzJen

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 05 January 17 12:52 GMT (UK) »
Thank you!!!! :-*
Aged 12????
That's much younger than I expected!! (When I said 'younger' I meant a year or two. That is a surprise.
Sounds like a hungry kid though, doesn't it - probably intended to eat the whole box!
Much appreciated,
OJ
Bennett (Aspley Guise & Luton, Beds); Elijah Bambridge (Burslem, Staff); Thomas Carr-Parkhurst boy (Loughrea, Gal'y); Dowle (Romney Marshes, Kent + London); Duffy (Trim, Meath); Joseph Kaye (Mirfield, W.Yks); Leonard (Meath); Mary Mulfahy/Fahy-famine orphan (Nenagh, Tipp'y); Elizabeth Hoskin (Illogan, Cornw); Wm Henry Pearce (Tucking Mill, Cornw, Burra, S.Aust); Ruddell (Kilmore, Armagh); Shepherd (Elstree, Herts); John/Clarissa Short (Bodmin, Cornw); Benjmn Thomas RN 1820s; Wright (Ballylisk).

Offline middlesbrough

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 05 January 17 12:59 GMT (UK) »
How sad this is. Received from Bridewell, Westminster Gaol 13.3.1843. Aged 12, for stealing a box of figs. Cant read or write, occupation labourer. Character "Well conducted, but sadly neglected."


Online Dundee

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 05 January 17 14:00 GMT (UK) »
Thomas was aged 17 when he arrived in 1847 which is consistent with being 12 in 1842, occupation Bricklayer.  Engaged as a Groom by Major Newman for one year.  Have you tried to find him in 1841?

Debra  :D

Offline OzJen

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 05 January 17 20:48 GMT (UK) »
Thank you, Dundee and Middlesbrough. Yes, it is sad, isn't it. There's a real pathos about that description of 'well conducted but sadly neglected' that really strikes home, I think. He must have been a little, lost, perhaps even slightly overwhelmed, 'Oliver Twist' character in some ways. Certainly a boy like this in English gaols of the 1840s or living out on the streets of London would have had a hard time of it. I've learned more about him as a person over the last 24 hours that helps me understand some of his reported attitudes in later life.

So far, I've not found him in 1841, but I'm wondering if he may still have been back in Galway. I know from his death certificate that his father was 'Pat Carr' and there is at least one man by that name that I can find getting poverty relief in Galway. Trouble is that so far I haven't been able to access any of the actual records to get any further with finding out whether it's the same fellow or not. Pat Carr could have been quite a common name in the county and the records in Galway of Pat Carrs getting the relief go well past 1842, so if it is the same person it may not be anything to do with my Thomas.

This is one reason why I have been trying to find the description of the trial in Westminster Sessions. I was hoping it would tell me a few more 'life details' for Thomas so I could work out how/why he'd gone from Galway to London, whether he was there on his own, things like that. It seems that unless one actually goes in to the LMA, that's not possible. Sometimes it's very frustrating trying to do this from outside the up the UK!!

OJ
Bennett (Aspley Guise & Luton, Beds); Elijah Bambridge (Burslem, Staff); Thomas Carr-Parkhurst boy (Loughrea, Gal'y); Dowle (Romney Marshes, Kent + London); Duffy (Trim, Meath); Joseph Kaye (Mirfield, W.Yks); Leonard (Meath); Mary Mulfahy/Fahy-famine orphan (Nenagh, Tipp'y); Elizabeth Hoskin (Illogan, Cornw); Wm Henry Pearce (Tucking Mill, Cornw, Burra, S.Aust); Ruddell (Kilmore, Armagh); Shepherd (Elstree, Herts); John/Clarissa Short (Bodmin, Cornw); Benjmn Thomas RN 1820s; Wright (Ballylisk).

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 07 January 17 11:41 GMT (UK) »
This is one reason why I have been trying to find the description of the trial in Westminster Sessions. I was hoping it would tell me a few more 'life details' for Thomas so I could work out how/why he'd gone from Galway to London, whether he was there on his own, things like that.

As already indicated in my reply #4 above, you will not find this sort of information in the Westminster Sessions records.

The most likely piece of useful information there will probably be the indictment, as this should state the parish where the offence was committed. At least that will place him within the London area. Indictments are usually filed within the sessions rolls (WJ/SR or MJ/SR).

It seems that unless one actually goes in to the LMA, that's not possible. Sometimes it's very frustrating trying to do this from outside the up the UK!!

It shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. Two suggestions ...

* Email LMA and commission them to do the research (£80/hour)

* Email LMA and ask them exactly which records they have that might help your search (this advice is normally free of charge). Then re-post to the London & Middlesex Lookups board, quoting their reply, and ask if anyone here can help. The sessions records are very extensive (over 5000 items, spread across several different series), so anyone who agrees to help you will benefit hugely from having LMA guidance before they start looking.

ask.lma AT cityoflondon.gov.uk


 

Online ShaunJ

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 07 January 17 12:51 GMT (UK) »
There was a Patrick Carr born Loughrea circa 1825 who served in the 5th Fusiliers from 1839 to 1852. A possible sibling perhaps.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline OzJen

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Re: Finding a record of criminal trial - Westminster City General Sessions
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 08 January 17 06:05 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the advice, Bookbox. £80/hr is beyond my capabilities, but I will get in touch with them and follow your other suggestions. Any additional info would be helpful with this one.
Bennett (Aspley Guise & Luton, Beds); Elijah Bambridge (Burslem, Staff); Thomas Carr-Parkhurst boy (Loughrea, Gal'y); Dowle (Romney Marshes, Kent + London); Duffy (Trim, Meath); Joseph Kaye (Mirfield, W.Yks); Leonard (Meath); Mary Mulfahy/Fahy-famine orphan (Nenagh, Tipp'y); Elizabeth Hoskin (Illogan, Cornw); Wm Henry Pearce (Tucking Mill, Cornw, Burra, S.Aust); Ruddell (Kilmore, Armagh); Shepherd (Elstree, Herts); John/Clarissa Short (Bodmin, Cornw); Benjmn Thomas RN 1820s; Wright (Ballylisk).