Worwoods lookup - 1841 & 1851 COMPLETED

[sunny]

hello everyone
My James Thomas Worwood (Warwood) and wife Charlotte Elizabeth cannot be found. HELP. I have tried censuses online...IGI, and EVERY other resource online, Plus Deptford PR marriages for 1836 and around. Plus 1829-1837 BMD (PR) for "Rotherhithe" Surrey/London. I have even googled. A part from the IGI and the Birth on Rotherhithe PR, which I confirmed,  I cannot find James Thomas Worwoods parents anywhere even on Google. It seems like James and Charlotte did not exist.
I have a couple of addresses I would like to see if they were there on the 1841 and 1851 census.
James Thomas JNR was born September 1836. The address at birth from PR was -Eves Place, Adam Street, Rotherhithe - parents James Thomas and Charlotte Elizabeth.
1861 census was at 77 Railway Grove, Deptford.
Could someone possibly check these addresses for 1841 and 1851.
This family are making me bald. any help appreciated.
Cheers Pam from Adelaide, Australia

[Biker]

Hello

I'm doing a bit of housekeeping and wondering if you're still looking for the information on this oldish request?  Or have you found the info in the meantime?

If you're still looking, is there anything you can add to help in the search?

If I don't hear from you in a while I'll move this to the 'Completed' section assuming that you no longer require the information.

Regards
Biker

[jennifer c]

Hi, not in Eves Place in 1841.

Jennifer

[sunny]

Hi Biker and jennifer,
No I am still hoping for some info Biker, thanks for asking.
Jennifer, there are a load of Worwoods. More to the point there are quite a few James Worwoods. My James Thomas chr 30/9/1836 son of James Thomas and charlotte Elizabeth (from PR) Senior James and Charlotte disappear. I am beginning to suspect that Charlotte died and James T remarried and re-invents himself as one of the other Jameses running around the area.
I can't find a death of Charlotte. No more kids for them either. This is why I need the 1841 or 1851 census
JAMES THOMAS JUNIOR
1871 census 3 Charlottes building, Hughes Field, Deptford, james junior
1861 77 Railway Grove  St Pauls Deptford - James junior
1851 and 1841 I cannot find by ancestry at all......
Nor their marriage on PR
So James junior should be at home with parent on 1851 and 1841.....
I am stumped.
I have been attacking this tree with a toothbrush for quite a few years. Heeeeellllppp. If you have them. I would love em
Cheers Pam

[sunny]

Ps, How rude of me. Thankyou very much for checking Eves place 1841 for me Jennifer. I appreciate that very much. This is a brickwall that's coming down with a toothbrush and a lot of wishful thinking.
Cheers Pam

[Biker]

Hello

Sorry, I've had a look for them too without success. 

Funny how your Warwood/Worwoods keep popping up in 1851 living in Hughes Fields John/Sarah (appear to be Charlotte Elizabeth Worwood's parents?) as well as Charlotte Elizabeth Worwood who married a john Fenton in 1841 living in Adam Street in 1851. 

Can find lots of them except James/Charlotte and James  .... 

Tough one that, sorry.  Hopefully someone else can provide a bit of inspiration ...

Regards
Biker

[sunny]

Hi Biker,
Yes it is odd that I keep finding them around there. A few other things have occurred to me over the years I have been searching.
1. As I said james T Senior remarried after his Charlottes death.
2. It seems strange the John and Sarah Worwood had a daughter Charlotte Elizabeth worwood AND My James T married a Charlotte Elizabeth as well.
a. Charlotte Elizabeth had a child out of wedlock and the James Thomas named as parent, may have indeed been a cousin, brother etc. If so and she later married jonathon Fenton, then James T junior should be with her on the 1841 census aged 5. OR
b. Cousins married. Not unheard of by any stretch.
c. or they disappeared back up North and I haven't been able to locate them. Apparently family lore states came from up North......Staff and Warwick are a hotbed for Worwoods.
Either way they are making me bald......Grin ! Thanks again though, and if you trip over them anywhere......??!!!!!!
Cheers Pam

[Bryant]

Hello Pam

Its an oldie..............

Part of the story missing.........whats with the Charlotte bit? when did John & Sarah have a daughter Charlotte?

1841
HANOVER STREET, ROTHERHITHE, SOUTHWARK, SURREY
CHARLOTTE WORWOOD  20  F.S   Y (BORN SURREY)
-------------
1841 rule ie 20-24=20
*is it not possible that James Thomas (husband of Charlotte) has died and James Thomas (junior) is living with Charlotte's parents? ..........Charlotte Elizabeth do we know her maiden name?.....Elizabeth could be her maiden surname but I would have thought it doubtful.....although their are Elizabeth's living a couple of miles away in Greenwich.

1841 Sept qtr Greenwich (after the census) 25th July 1841 Saint Paul, Deptford......Charlotte Elizabeth Worwood married John William Fenton........that marriage cert should tell you whether Charlotte is a widow or spinster at time of marriage?

The marriage of Thomas to Sarah Frostik.......Newington R.D (Southwark)...Dec qtr....1857 will state Thomas's father's name and occupation and it just might tell you if he is alive or not......it will also give you where Thomas (junior) was living at the time of marriage.
Hopefully........the witnesses at the marriage (as its local) will be family members.......which family ie bride or grooms?

In 1861 the place of birth of Sarah states Southwark and as that is where she was born/her family live you would expect that to be the place of her marriage.

1861
77 RAILWAY GROVE, ST PAULS DEPTFORD, LONDON, KENT
JAMES WORWOOD    HEAD   24   BOILER MAKER    ROTHERHITHE, SURREY
SARAH         "            WIFE    25                              SOUTHWARK, SURREY
SARAH A      "            DAUR    7 MONTHS                 DEPTFORD, SURREY
-----------

1841
PEPPER STREET, ST SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK, SURREY
JAMES FROSTIK   45  J. COOPER   N
SARAH     "           40                     N
JOHN       "           14                     N
SARAH     "             5                     Y (BORN SURREY)
\
MARY AXON          80  IND             N
MARY MOSS          25  IND             N
--------------

1861
64 CARDIGAN STREET, LAMBETH, SURREY
JAMES FROSTIK                 HEAD   67   COOPER                       MIDDX
SARAH      "                       WIFE    64                                       MIDDX
SUSAN      "                       DAUR    17 DRESSMAKER                 BERMONDSEY
JAMES T WORWOOD     GRANDSON 2                                       DEPTFORD, KENT
------------

JAMES THOMAS WORWOOD born Greenwich R.D......Sept qtr.......1858

CONCLUSION...........so far this has been too easy, you got the marriage certs and found him a long while ago didn't you?  

Regards
Bryant

[sunny]

Hi Bryant
My appologies, I do have a lot of what you have sent now.....so I am really sorry I should have asked Biker to change the Post to go with my worwood posts and out of the 1841 and Biker if you are listening (grin)   Appologies to you also. I will remove the whole thing in a few days after I am certain you received my reply. I still cannot find him on the 1851 census either so that was why I left it there. The 1851 might answer a lot of questions. But nobody can find him.

But Bryant I still cannot ascertain the parentage, which is why I posted for the addresses to be checked in the 1841 & 1851 originally.
The IGI gives John and Sarah as having a daughter Charlotte Elizabeth Worwood chr Rotherhithe 1816
The fact that the only James unaccounted for, is with John and Sarah in the 1841 census and the right age of course,  and he later lived in the same street, I am sure that he is my James....with John and Sarah
The marriage of Charlotte Elizabeth to John Fenton on the PR's does NOT state widowed so another Worwood researcher told me.
We have followed all the other James Worwood/Warwoods. One James (no middle name) remains unmarried his whole life and the other is up north in Staff and in an assylum. All the others are married to someone else.
We cannot find a Charlotte Elizabeths Worwoods death at all. So she remarried or married for the first time to John Fenton. We cannot find a death of a James Thomas Worwood the eldest either.
We have been through the waterman cd as well, collated and cross referenced and followed every one we can.
I really believe that Charlotte Elizabeth either lied about the father or the father was a cousin (the unmarried one perhaps)
and they were not allowed to marry. It said he was a carpenter on the PR
but a waterman on the marriage entry for James Thomas junior.
The family of the unmarried James are all watermen. So you see why we think Charlotte lied. I could go on and on with other vague proof.
But my Worwood cousin has decided to bite the bullet and hire a researcher. WE have a database of BMD's, and IGI, and everything you can think of, and cannot find any marriage, or James Thomas Worwood that fits, except those above. Put it this way we are doing reverse genealogy. If you can't prove something, prove it cannot be anything else. Sigh !!
Sorry for wasting your time hon.
The 1851 census might tie it all together but I have tried every trick in the book to find them another James and Charlotte, either or.

Cheers Pam