Author Topic: 1939 register - closing an open identity  (Read 15697 times)

Offline Rosinish

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #45 on: Thursday 09 February 17 02:36 GMT (UK) »
Actually, now that I think about it, I'm going to have a look tomorrow to see if any of mine are open (ones who I have gaps on) who should be closed  ???

Annie
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Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

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Offline majm

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #46 on: Thursday 09 February 17 02:41 GMT (UK) »
Annie,

Yes I agree.   

I posted the TNA live link that includes far more detail than just those snippets.   I cannot see where FindMyPast had any authority to open any record where the person was not yet 100 years of age unless they had positive proof that the person was no longer living.  Also earlier in the thread there was mention as to 100 year was not a statutory cut off.   I posted those snippets as to me they are from a reliable source.  To me, they support the notion that FindMyPast should immediately close the OP's mother in law's entry in the 1939 register.  To me, any person, not just a family member, and not just the elderly vulnerable person themselves,  should be able to contact FindMyPast and say "close these open records, where the person is not yet 100 years, until you, FindMyPast, have proven they are deceased". 

JM
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Offline Rosinish

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #47 on: Thursday 09 February 17 03:11 GMT (UK) »
JM,

That was my point earlier, they should have the proof prior to opening it up & again, if someone lets them know a person is alive but open on 1939 then yes again, if they don't have the proof of a death it should not be open.

How can they justify asking someone/anyone, especially a family member to prove their relative is still alive when they are the ones who need to prove a person is deceased  ???

It's not as if anyone is going to lie to them about their relative being alive if they are deceased....who in their right mind would do that unless it was fact  ::)

We can put 2 words together with this which sums them up.....contradiction & contravention!

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #48 on: Thursday 09 February 17 07:31 GMT (UK) »


So, why try to fool people with their laws regarding 'privacy' having to prove someone is alive who they say is deceased?

How many of these Laws are actually 'Law'?

By law they can't do this/that/next but at the same time they are breaking the law by having people (less than 100 yrs old) on view to the public!

In other words the word 'Law' comes into force if/when it suits them.

I think a court would be more inclined to throw out the 'Law' of a 'discussion' (with a relative) of someone who's name (who shouldn't be) by 'Law' is open to the world on their site if the relative took them to court for breaking the 'Law' by having that relation on view to the public simply because they can't prove where they got their supposed proof of the person being deceased.

Annie

The 100 year rule is something that has confused researchers for a number of years.

Initially it was created in 1966 by the Lord Chancellor’s Instrument No. 12.
That Statutory Instrument (a type of ‘Act of Parliament’ that creates laws) was repealed by the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

That means that the 100 year rule only had standing in law between 1966 and 2000 (34 years).
After 2000 a number of archives such as the National Archives and the GRO decided to continue to use the now defunct law as a general guideline or office policy  to help them decide which records to release and which to withhold from public access.
It is however only that an office policy as the legal basis of it had been repealed.

In February 2004 the Lord Chancellor’s Advisory Council on National Records and Archives considered and accepted a proposal for the use of a standard closure period, and that a lifetime of 100 years should be assumed.

However that proposal is guidance or advice unlike the earlier Statutory Instrument it is not a law, that is the difference.

There are many factors at play that allow any particular record to be open or closed on the 1939 National Registration some of which were caused by the way the data was transcribed.
Unlike most transcriptions which are transcribed line by line in the normal fashion of reading a page the 1939 was transcribed in columns instead, this was done to prevent transcribers gaining access to “private information”.
On completion the columns were reassembled to form pages but sometimes an entry would have been missed in the transcription or duplicated which meant that sometimes the columns were not aligned correctly.
This could mean that an entry was opened or remained closed when the 1939 was released.
In other instances a person’s birth date was mis-transcribed giving the impression the person was older or younger than they were. In addition the right hand page (which was not scanned due to it containing medical information) carried a column which was marked when a person died. Sometimes this was marked in error, when for instance a person emigrated or left the patient list of a doctor, in other cases this was not marked when the person died, perhaps they died overseas or the doctor was not informed of their death.

The National Archives and FindMyPast are trying their best to comply with the wishes of those whose records they hold and with the wishes of the general population, whilst complying with the law of England & Wales, but we must keep in mind errors do and have occurred both now and in the past, some of which are not easy to correct without proof of the situation.

Cheers
Guy
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Offline StevieSteve

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #49 on: Thursday 09 February 17 08:07 GMT (UK) »
But that burden of proof should be on FindMyPast

If I say "i'm alive, but you have me as dead", it's not up to me to prove it, and I would say that quite forcefully if asked

What can have gone wrong?

1/ Error on the census
2/ Error in transcription
3/ Someone has provided FindMyPast with inaccurate information
4/ Someone has provided FindMyPast with accurate information that they have used incorrectly
5/ Their ongoing process for closing dead people has failed
6/ I'm over 100

In every case, I would expect a response of "Oops, sorry" with the record being closed


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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #50 on: Thursday 09 February 17 08:40 GMT (UK) »
But that burden of proof should be on FindMyPast

If I say "i'm alive, but you have me as dead", it's not up to me to prove it, and I would say that quite forcefully if asked

What can have gone wrong?

1/ Error on the census
2/ Error in transcription
3/ Someone has provided FindMyPast with inaccurate information
4/ Someone has provided FindMyPast with accurate information that they have used incorrectly
5/ Their ongoing process for closing dead people has failed
6/ I'm over 100

In every case, I would expect a response of "Oops, sorry" with the record being closed




But how many of the request to close records have been from the person themselves.
The majority seem to come from third parties not the data subject.

Cheers
Guy
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Offline clairec666

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #51 on: Thursday 09 February 17 09:09 GMT (UK) »
Surely the risk of identity fraud from the 1939 register isn't a huge problem - a fraudster can apply for a birth certificate to find the same information.

That's irrelevant though - FindMyPast should (in my opinion) do more to ensure that the wrong records haven't been opened. Yes, mistakes will happen, but I've seen a lot of incorrectly transcribed DOBs (e.g. my grandmother, transcribed as 77 not 27, occupation "at school" so it's unlikely she was born in 1877!)
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Offline jc26red

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #52 on: Thursday 09 February 17 10:56 GMT (UK) »
Some background to how I discovered my MIL's details were open yesterday. Previously her details were closed, I am assuming she was one of the batch that FindMyPast proudly announced they had opened a few months ago.

I was having yet another search for her husband (d1976), his brother (d1999), father (d1947) mother (d1966) and living in the same town as my MIL.  I have done everything to find them, including an address search as I already knew where they lived.  Nothing! so I decided to do the "chat help service" that FindMyPast offer hoping that whoever I speak to would have access to the database without the details redacted.  Nope, the FindMyPast lady saw exactly the same thing as me and advised me to contact the TNA to ask them for a PAID researcher to look ::)      Nope, I only live a 40 minute drive away and I can do that myself!
But it was during the search yesterday I found my MIL, scrolling through all the names with a +/- 2 years age.

I am sure its probably an error on the side of the FindMyPast contractors who are updating the database but MIL isn't the only one I have found recently, no deaths recorded anywhere. Too distant for me to sort out which got me thinking, about the odds of either the person themselves or a close family member actually discovering the slip?  The odds are very slim considering very few elderly people do not know how to use a computer or have close family that are researching their family history.

 
Surely the risk of identity fraud from the 1939 register isn't a huge problem - a fraudster can apply for a birth certificate to find the same information.
well, maybe but recently a replacement bank card "didn't" arrive (now cancelled)  but all it takes is someone with the bank details and address and dob to take out loans in her name and just intercept the mail addressed to her.....      and fraud has happened at her retirement village before.   Unlikely to be nursing/admin staff as they have access to these details anyway.  Just saying....
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Offline jc26red

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #53 on: Thursday 09 February 17 10:59 GMT (UK) »
.......but I've seen a lot of incorrectly transcribed DOBs (e.g. my grandmother, transcribed as 77 not 27, occupation "at school" so it's unlikely she was born in 1877!)

I found an "Amos" transcribed as Anne female... retired locomotive driver  ;D ;D ;D

and the irony....
found a distant female cousin of my MIL, a secretary who listed her occupation as "designer of the national register"!  Now that's a "one off" occupation.
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