Elizabeth (Lizzie) Watkins born around 1863

[OnTheRoad]

I have been tracing my great grandparents John Thomas and Lizzie Watkins, and thought I had most of the facts but when I recently received what I thought was their marriage certificate, the bride's father's name was different from what I expected. I have not pinned down John's birth certificate yet as it was such a common name but I believe Lizzie was the daughter of Thomas and Emily Watkins (nee Prosser). Thomas was a Waterman on the River Wye. However on the marriage certificate on 17 Sept 1883 in Newport, Monmouth her father's name is given as James Watkins, Cab Driver (deceased). This was the only marriage I could find that seemed to fit all of the facts I had, so I was surprised at the different father's name.

I have found the family in the 1871 and 1881 census i.e. Thomas, Emily and Elizabeth, but cannot find a James with daughter Elizabeth. Any advice, suggestions of where to search, or general assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in anticipation
Cherryl

[groom]

Who were the witnesses, do they help at all?

[AMBLY]

Hi Cherryl,

As well as the Witness' names - what's the ages of the pair on the Marriage 1883 Cert, and their residences, and what is the groom's father's name & occupation?

What are the details from any census post-marriage from your known couple?  1891, 1901, 1911?

Re: Thomas WATKINS and Emily (Emma) PROSSER , they've also been located in1861.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765417.msg6173404#msg6173404
Their Elizabeth was registered as Elizabeth Anne (Jane?) Caroline WATKINS, born 6 May 1863, Monmouth. (The GRO index lists her as WATKINS, Elizabeth Ann..., Free BMD index her as Elizabeth Jane Caroline WATKINS - I think the latter is probably mistaken with 'Jane' - easily made, as viewing the cert will attest!)

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Many marriages of brides called Elizabeth WATKINS in Monmouthshire - I searched 1861 to 1901, and of all the results, only one has a second name:

Elizabeth Ann WATKINS
Only other name on page: Henry BIGHAM
Sep Qtr 1886, Monmouth.

If she can be connected to Thomas WATKINS & Emily PROSSER , she could be eliminated from your search.

Cheers
AMBLY

[OnTheRoad]

Thank you all for your suggestions and input. Sorry I am a bit slow in responding but I live in Australia so you are giving me all sorts of ideas while I am sleeping

The witnesses were John James and Elizabeth Ann Burton - neither of these are familiar to me, but that is probably not surprising.

John Thomas was 22 and Elizabeth was 19 at the time of the marriage. Both were resident in Risca, and John was employed as a Colliery Engineer Driver. There is some anecdotal evidence in the family that John was lodging in Risca when he met Lizzie, so this makes me think these two could be my ancestors.  I just wish there were some more unusual names!!

Both fathers were deceased by 1883 and John Thomas senior was a coal miner, as were so many men in those days.

The main issue at the moment is that IF the marriage cert is correct (i.e. the registrar didn't make a mistake and write James instead of Thomas) and belongs to my family, then where can I find information about JAMES Watkins as father of Lizzie / Elizabeth? I haven't found him in any census yet I seem to have all census records for Thomas and Emily Watkins and their daughter Elizabeth.

I must admit I am still confused! Thanks again to Ambly and Groom though - it is always so encouraging to get input from you friendly RootsChatters. I am going back to the other thread I started yesterday regarding the birth certificate of Elizabeth and will respond to the comments there, which are also relevant to this thread.
All the best
Cherryl

[AMBLY]

Hi Cherryl,

As you mentioned your tree on A**, (photo envy, all the lovely photos you have  !!) I went and had a look and saw your Lizzie in the 1891 Census  with her husband John THOMAS and their 3 children.
RG12/ Piece 4417 / Folio 89, Pg 26

The very first thing I note:
In the same dwelling house - 22 Shippard Street, Gelliwion,  Llantrisant, Glamorgan
Is another family, on a separate schedule:

1891:
Head:Richard JAMES 35, Coal Winder (engine driver), b Penhow, Mon.
Wife: Sarah JAMES 31, b Newport Mon
Son: Fred JAMES 3,
Son: William JAMES 4, b Monmouth, Mon
Mother-in-Law: Sarah WATKINS 64, widow, Laundress, b Risca, Mon (abt 1827)
Niece: Emma WATKINS 8, Scholar, b Cardiff , Mon.
Plus: 2 Boarders, then the next schedule, the (your) THOMAS family.

Here are the JAMES',  10 years earlier:
1881: 8 Tredegar St, Clawrplwyf, (Risca), Mynyddislwyn, Monmouthshire
RG11 - Piece 5272 /  Folio 26 /  Pg4
Head: Richard JAMES 25, Coal Miner, b Penhow, Mon.
Wife: Sarah A JAMES 22, b Newport, Mon.
Mother-in-Law: Sarah WATKINS 54, wid,  Laundress, b Monmouth (abt 1827).
Niece: Sarah J WATKINS 1, b Cardiff, Glam.

Have you followed this WATKINS lot to see if it's your Lizzie's mother, sister & niece and already eliminated them?

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Hmmm....

MARRIAGE : 1880, Pontypool
Sarah Ann WATKINS
Richard JAMES

The couple can be found in 1901 and later, confirms her name is Sarah Ann. Her year of birth consistently, ca 1859 Newport.

From the GRO, this is a list of BIRTH contenders for a Sarah Ann WATKINS in Newport:
WATKINS, SARAH  ANN    - mms JOSHUA 
1860  M Quarter in NEWPORT  Volume 11A  Page 198

WATKINS, SARAH  ANN   - mms HARRIS 
1860  M Quarter in NEWPORT  Volume 11A  Page 199

WATKINS, SARAH  ANN   - mms THOMAS 
1860  D Quarter in NEWPORT  Volume 11A  Page 164

WATKINS, SARAH  ANN WHITCOMBE  mms:   - 
1859  D Quarter in NEWPORT  Volume 11A  Page 168

Couldn't find any marriages of a WATKINS to a Sarah JOSHUA or HARRIS or THOMAS in Monmouthshire, that jumped out.

Then turning to the last name on the list, I spotted this, which did:  

1861: 16 Mellons Sq., Newport, Monmouthshire
RG9 - Piece 4019 / Folio 55 / Pg18
Head: James WHITCOMBE 42, Ostler, b Hereford
Wife: Sarah WHITCOMBE 33, b Monmouth (abt 1828)
Son: Fred'K W WHITCOMBE 11, Scholar, b Monmouth
Son: Jos'h W WHITCOMBE 7, b Bristol, Somerset
Dau: Sarah A WHITCOMBE 1, b Newport

Eager to get to 1871, to see if there is a younger daughter of that family, named Elizabeth....and why yes, there is!

1871: 17 Canal Parade, Newport, Monmouthshire
RG10 - Piece 5344 / Folio 54 / Pg6
Head: Sarah WIDCOMBE, 44, widow, Laundress, b
Son: Joseph WIDCOMBE 16, Laborer, b Bristol
Dau: Sarah Ann WIDCOMBE 11, Scholar, b Newport
Son: Chas Hy WIDCOMBE 7, Scholar, b Newport
Dau: Elizabeth WIDCOMBE 6, Scholar, b Newport
Dau: Emma WIDCOMBE 3, b Newport

BIRTH: Joseph WATKINS, Dec Q 1853, Bristol. mms: -----
BIRTH: Charles Henry WHITCOMBE, Dec Qtr 1862, Newport M. mms: WATKINS
BIRTH: Emma WHITCOMBE, Dec Q 1867, Newport M. mms: WATKINS

By 1881, the mother - I think - is the one with her married daughter Sarah Ann, Mrs Richard James, in the same house - I think -  as her other daughter Elizabeth, Mrs John THOMAS . And  this could be the baby of the family that same year, not at home  - but already out in Service:

1881: 15 Clarence Street, Trevethin, Pontypool, Monmouthshire
RG11 /  Piece 5250 / Folio: 15 /  Pg24
Servant: Emma WATKINS 13, General Domestic Servant, b Newport, Mon.

The question is:  is this following your Lizzie? Registered as WHITCOMBE:
BIRTH: Elizabeth WHITCOMBE, June Qtr 1865, Newport - mms WATKINS

Your Elizabeth saying her father is James WATKINS, when he was in fact James WHITCOMBE wouldn't be the first bride to ever cobble together two separate people to 'legitimise' herself.

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

The plot thickens….

Here is I think, Sarah WATKINS / WHITCOMBE - the mother, in 1851  - and therein perhaps the reason for the 'alternative facts' in years to come. Also calling into question which of the children might be Sarah's, and which were her sister Ann's.

1851: at Monnow Street, Monmouth, Monmouthshire
HO107 / Piece 2445 / Folio 286 / Pg 16
Head: James WHITCOMB 34, Brewer, b Monmouth
Wife: Ann WHITCOMB 24, Laundress, b Monmouth
Son: Fred'k Wm WHITCOMB, 6 Mo., b Monmouth
Wife's Sister: Sarah WATKINS 23, unm, b Monmouth

MARRIAGE 1850: Sep Qtr 1850, Ross, Herefordshire
Two names on the page:
James WHITCOMBE
Anne WATKINS

Still can't find a birth registration for Frederick William WHITCOMBE, the 6 month old in 1851.

Cheers
AMBLY

[OnTheRoad]

Wow - you have all been very busy and creative
I am not sure I am following it all though. It is 11pm here and I am off to bed but will read this all again and try to get my head around it. The facts I know are that Elizabeth/ Lizzie Watkins married John Thomas around 1883 then had lots of children. I am not certain whether I knew her mother was Emily and/or the surname was Prosser or whether I picked it up from researching. I have been dabbling with it for so long that I am no longer certain.
Anyway thanks again for your insights and I will try and get my head around it all tomorrow.
All the best
Cherryl