Major Denis Bingham's son William birth information

[Bob Queensland]

Hi Lola .. Yes you are completely right .. family roots are not about just collecting names ... the population was desimated during the time .. in fact from the first famines in the early 1700s right through to late 1800s.
Of the third who emigrated lives were lost and many transformed .. its interesting that some 55 million of us Irish decendants worldwide owe our existance to sad events so long ago.
During my quest I have read numerous books and testimonies from the time and have tried to understand why the massive rise in population in western Ireland, the one staple diet, why other parts of Ireland were not hit as hard during the famine, class distinction, the political and religious upheavals ... I may never fully understand the human race but I can only try to treat others as I would like to treated ... again thank you Bob from Down-Under

[Kathleenmary]

Hi Bob

I got Kitty's Birthdate, 1760, from Ancestry..but my record has it as 1768 with Bingham born 1765.

My Documents say that Bingham and Edward Kelly were about the same age, but this cannot be so...my document states that Kelly was born around 1745/50 which makes sense given the age of his children.

Like everything else in this crooked tale its hard to know anything for sure..

Given that Bingham's father died in 1789 and the Major inherited the estates it makes sense that the two moved from South Mayo to the West in around 1790..but may well have been doing stuff there before that.

Its possible that Edward Kelly worked for Bingham's father I suppose, as he appears to be trusted to manage things. They must have traveled around a fair bit as the distances between South and West Mayo were not huge...Castlebar may also be a relevant place to search for the sisters..although Kitty may well have been airbrushed out of the Bingham history I suspect.

Major Denis was an enterprising chap and attempted to set up  a business in herring fishing, he built a large factory and store and brought over Coopers from Aberdeen including Alexander McCoy.
McCoy had six sons and one daughter, Mary, who married Edward Kelly's 3rd son, another Edward Kelly, and is a great great etc somebody to me.

Apparently the Herring business never really got off the ground..

Here is what my Great great Grandfather Henry Edward wrote about Bingham Castle in 1937...

" The Cosgrove government of the Irish Free State resumed the whole of the Bingham Estate, demolished the magnificent  Bingham Castle, cut up the estate into suitable areas for small farmers  and transferred into their..(its blank here)..the hardy islanders of Inishkea."

Mind you this old fellow was long gone from Belmullet by 1922 having emigrated in 1876 to Sydney. Most of his family including his aging parents and his brothers followed him out here. The old boy never stopped longing for Erris and Elly Bay and continued to write for the Irish times until 1937 when he died. At that time old Henry Edward said there were no Kellys and no Binghams left in Belmullet...but we know thats not quite true.

Please let me know if you find anything on Kitty!

[amac1210]

Hi Kathleenmary + everyone,

You say Edward may have been born as far back as c.1745-1750. That might make the John Kelly I mentioned two generations below him, instead of only one. To re-iterate, John Kelly was father of one Catherine Kelly who married one James Bingham in 1848, Dublin. James ends up in Castlebar, and died in 1890. Catherine apparently died in 1892, in the same location, but using the surname Kelly. James' father is only listed as Robert Bingham (Gardiner). No Baptism available. I wonder if he could be a son of Robert Augustus Bingham? The fact he goes out to Mayo shows he knew the Binghams over there in any case. Possibly a half-brother of Denis who married Elizabeth Nash?

Any idea on where Edward Kelly originated otherwise? Names for his parents? It'd be interesting to identify his origins, and whether he was a Mayo man or otherwise. I wonder why the Binghams moved from Dublin out to Mayo themselves? I think I read they had longstanding historical connections to the County.

As to the religious divide mentioned here, I'm not sure it would have been a problem in private life. I've heard of conversions for convenience's sake, when love is involved. They could have had a private Protestant wedding, unrecorded. Or they could have been common-law man and wife? Anything on the Geraghty sisters' parents? We might wonder if they were friendly with the Major and Edward? Or if Edward introduced the Major to his own wife's sister, as a suitable match? Were there perhaps other siblings to the Geraghtys and who did they marry? That could be another whole line of research, and show up more connections.

[Bob Queensland]

Hi Kathleen and Amac
Sorry haven't chased the Kelly line too far, more interested in "Kitty", Edward Kelly's sister-in-law, my Binghams as Landlords were from Newbrook/ Castlebar area moving into Mayo late 1789/90, I'm seeking Geraughty family around Newbrook, Castlebar etc without much success. Maj Denis's brother Henry's son Robert Augustus married his daughter Anne 1815 and were based in Bingham Castle. Robert did have a brother John Charles, a reverend and a son Denis in 1818 who married Nash in 1846 but as far as I know there was no John, a gardener from Dublin. I don't think the Binghams of Dublin you mentioned fit into any of my research, so far.

[amac1210]

Hi again,

My speculation was that James might have been illegitimate son of Robert Augustus. Not inconceivable. Otherwise, we'd have to find another Robert Bingham - who would have been in some contact with the Mayo Binghams, since James Bingham moves to Castlebar around the same time as Denis who married Elizabeth Nash. Half-brothers? Cousins? Like I said, there isn't any Baptism record, and it makes the line of inquiry more difficult. All I can say is that there are no other Robert Binghams who I can find online. You'll probably know more though!

I wonder if there is a death record for Kitty? If she lived to old age there might be. Saying that, even in the 20th century, many individuals just don't get recorded. Record keeping seems to have been quite abysmal. I did notice Geraghty connections to John Togher - one of Arthur's servants in 1911. Coincidence? These connections are on John Togher's maternal family, but it's impossible to say if these Geraghtys were descendants of Kitty's parents.

[amac1210]

Some information I found online:

James Kelly = Letitia French St. George (dau. of Anne Bingham and Christopher St. George)

Son born to them was Henry Michael Bingham Kelly (c.1800-1880) whose gravestone was uploaded earlier in the discussion. He married Catherine Browne. He was therefore (great)-nephew of 1st Baron Clanmorris, as the record stipulates regarding his marriage.

James Kelly, son of Denis Kelly = Anne Armstrong
Denis Kelly,  son of John O'Kelly Farrell = Honora Burke (dau. of 9th Earl of Clanricarde)

No need to go farther back in time. All I'll say is that James Kelly who married Letitia French St. George, is said to have had "several siblings". We know the names of a couple immediately: the Rev. Andrew Armstrong Kelly and John Kelly. Denis was apparently born c.1720 and died 1794. Given the dates for Edward Kelly - the Major's brother-in-law - I strongly suspect he was another child of Denis Kelly, or a close relation of some kind. This solves the issue of the barrier between them over religion and class. In actual fact, this Kelly family was connected to the aristocracy, and would have known the Binghams.

As to John Kelly - father-in-law of James Bingham - and Anthony Kelly in Belmullet; these connections remain unconfirmed. How they might (or might not) fit in to this larger Kelly clan isn't clear. What we can say, though, is that these Kelly folk kicked about Mayo a lot. James Kelly who was married to Letitia died in Co. Mayo. Others were in Co. Galway.

That's all I can find for now, and it seems clearer how the characters connect. Hope this is of interest to you!

[Bob Queensland]

Hi Amac
I'll try the contact Togher as part of my searching.
I only have Anne marrying Christopher St George in 1778 and living in Tyrone House near Galway, now a ruin, but I have nothing on their children and marriages. Your information of marriage to a James Kelly definately opens a line of Kellys. There are heaps and heaps of Kellys throughout west Ireland, you certainly have a quest.. good luck PS Thanks for your info on my Denis's Kelly offspring

[amac1210]

Hi Bob,

I tried to find the death record for Barbara Deane - living with your g-g-grandfather Arthur in 1901 - but nothing in the whole of Ireland shows up. Maybe the surname was written down wrong? She was 88 years old in 1901, so she must have died by 1911 or thereabouts. John Togher is listed as John Toher in the 1911 census. I also notice a girl named Bridget Sally in 1901, aged 18 years. Nothing at all on her that I can find afterwards! I now suspect she moved to Scotland, alongside so many others in Mayo. Must have a look there, when I get the time. In 1911, alongside John Togher, we have Rose Gaughan aged 23 years. Was she related to the family in which Denis Bingham had a son - Denis Gaughan? I tried finding out, and I can't identify whether this is the case or not.

As to the records for James Kelly and Letitia French St. George, all these are readily available: https://www.geni.com/people/James-Kelly-43/6000000014035018059. The link I attach does seem to have errors with the dates, however. I saw a post elsewhere that tells us the two children of Henry Michael Bingham Kelly were Louisa Gordon, and Charlotte. They have many descendants of their own now. I think what is clear is that the descendants of Henry Bingham and Letitia Daly were all connected. This is why I think Edward Kelly (born c.1745) is connected to James Kelly, and perhaps to Catherine Kelly who married the mysterious James Bingham (c.1823-1890). The Geraghtys are the other lot who need investigating, but I don't see how we can go much further unless this John Togher's Geraghty family were the same. Indeed, without siblings for Kitty and Bridget, there will be nothing else to go on. Is there no information on Kitty's parents names?

The research is enjoyable in any case, but yes it is a big task to investigate. I find the same with my Barrett ancestors (on the other side of my ancestry) - they all connect somehow, but they are so numerous as to make the exact connections elusive. I did find a famous poet named Richard Barrett, possibly connected, who lived way back in the Rebellion of 1798. He was something of a local hero, and I believe he was friendly with the Major. When he began to support the Rebellion, that friendship dried up! His grave was marked very visibly until a few decades back, and now the sea has claimed it mostly, as it was on the coast. He is said to have been the "Last Bard" of Ireland - going back to the 1500s, we find that it was a professional occupation. https://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4428004/4367024/4465626

All the Best! Amac1210

[Bob Queensland]

Hi Amac
James seemed to have a fairly close relationship with the St George household, noticed second wife a St George.
Have a safe 2021 mate, I'll plod on with the Geraghty clan, may get lucky and find "Kitty" the cook and lover for my Maj Denis one day.