James McKenzie, Dundee

[MaxD]

Annie

As to age of enlistment - there was much change/improvement through the nineteenth century* but by the last quarter of the 1800s the age for enlistment was generally 15 although rules were not always adhered to and some recruiting parties were not above taking younger boys particularly if they were tall!

A general point - the term "Under age" on a service record usually referred to a person being under 18, the age at which qualification for pension started.


maxD


*It was the 1830s/40s before any meaningful regulation on the age of boy chimney sweeps was enacted.

[Rosinish]

Forfar connection with Military, 1901 states born Edinburgh yet the surname McKenzie is a further north surname?

Yes, MacKenzie/McKenzie is from further north (Inverness-shire/Ross and Cromarty) but by the 1860s enough Highlanders had 'emigrated' to the Lowlands to make it quite a common surname even in Edinburgh.

Yes Forfarian,

I'm aware of the movement of the time but I was thinking aloud

The initial piece of info. Reply #4

“James Mckenzie
Birth: Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland”

He later states Edinburgh.
Could he have had relatives around Forfar, Kincardine & beyond as a move from Edinburgh where he could have enlisted may have initially been for work rather than to enlist & if he had given a Dundee address it may have been assumed he was born there or would there have been a reason for him to state he was born in Dundee rather than Edinburgh?

So which of those birth places do we believe is why my ‘?’

Annie

[benchurian]

Hi Forfarian,

benchurian, I am confused. You say in a post dated 5 January 2012 in your other thread that you had 'just dicovered' that James was born in Edinburgh about 1855. Yet in the first post in this thread, dated 27 June 2017, you say he was from Dundee and born about 1860.

In 2012 I was working off a family rumour, my elderly mother thought her family came from Edinburgh.  Today we know, according to his enrollment papers, he was born in Dundee. As for the DOB we are counting back assuming he was 21(legal age) in 1877 when he first married.  Hope this answers your question.

Gerry.

[isobelw]

If my reading of the various posts is correct then Benchurion has found a reference to a James McKenzie born in Dundee on the Myheritage database and is now trying to prove he is the same person that married Catherine Dorman in 1877 in Dublin ( at which time he was a soldier with the 93rd regiment). The birth certificates of his children suggest that James left the army around 1878 and was subsequently employed in various different jobs (Clerk, Warehouseman, Labourer). Not having access to the Myheritage data it is difficult to judge whether there is a possibility of it being the same person. My feeling is the Dundee angle is a complete red herring.
Isobel

[Rosinish]

Isobel,

I had typed this prior to posting after reading everything in full etc. but I see you are of the same opinion with some doubt as to the Forfar Military connection.

Benchurion,

It would have been an idea to have given us all the info. you have right from the start as there’s absolutely nothing within anything posted so far by yourself (or anyone else) to suggest your James was b “[+-]1860”

The info. you have provided (in no particular order) is….

“I am looking for info on James McKenzie who I estimate was born in [+-]1860
His father was Thomas McKenzie and mother Margaret. 
As far as I know James came from or lived in Dundee posted in Forfarshire Rga
I am confused as to who James father is.  He married in a civil and later in a church ceremony.  In one his father was John and the other Thomas James first married Catherine Dorman in an 1877
James Mckenzie of full age, a private in the 93rd rgt
James Mckenzie Birth: Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland”

Marriage ‘of full age’ would make him at least 21 yrs old in 1877 (born c 1856 or prior) i.e. why would you assume a birth year of “[+-]1860”?

From Isobel;

“1901 census gives Edinburgh as place of birth and in 1911 the person completing the census has started to write Edinburgh and then crossed it out and written Scotland
James was 46 in 1901 and 56 in 1911 which makes his birth nearer 1855”

Death 1925 aged 71 i.e. born c 1854

How sure are you that the Military Man is yours as MaxD has shown….
 “There are records of attestations to the Forfarshire and Kincardine RGA at the National Archives.  They are published on Findmypast but the earliest enlistment I find for that name in that regiment is 1894”

Annie

[Rosinish]

Benchurion,

From the info. on the marriage cert. "a private in the 93rd rgt" could it be that this was;
http://www.93rdhighlanders.com/hist.html

That would be a better fit for the surname if nothing else although doesn't really fit for his place of birth as Edinburgh but could he have signed up in Edinburgh?

I have no knowledge of Army Recruitment i.e. maybe MaxD can answer that?

I'm only trying to help 

Annie

[isobelw]

Findmypast have Attestation Papers for a James McKenzie born Dundee around 1862. He joined the Durham Light Infantry ( soldier number 539) in Jan 1882 and served till 1889 before transferring to the Army Reserve until 1894. He declared previous service in the F & K Arty Militia ( which I think is Forfar and Kincardine Artillery Militia). His next of kin was Mother Jessie McKenzie of 5 Kinloch Street, Dundee. Is it possible that this is the person who appears on the MyHeritage index?
Isobel

[MaxD]

IsobelW  - The passage of time has added a layer of confusion to the thread.  I was able earlier on,  via the My Heritage reference thence to the original NA document WO 96/1357 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C154881 which is the relevant register of attestations to the F&K then back to FindMyPast where the WO 96 ref gave me the DLI man.  (Deep breath).  However, at that stage of the thread, the mother's name Jessie and the 1862 birth seemed to put it out of the running so I left it in the pending tray.

As far as that man is concerned, he is a James McKenzie, I have no view on whether he is the one sought.  In fact it was at that point I suggested benchurian come from the Armed Forces to the Scotland board. 

As to whether he is likely to be the man later serving in the 93rd (Annie you have it correct), I don't think so.  James McKenzie of the 93rd was married in 1877.  The DLI man who joined up in 1882, has no wife and does not say he had previous service in the 93rd.  Apart from that, the various family names don't add up with Jessie,  and the man in Ireland is said to have stayed in Ireland.  (A (another?) James McKenzie joined the 93rd in the early part of 1871 - no details for him.

For me these two are definitely two different James McKenzies and my earlier thought that the answer does not lie in military records stands.

maxD

 Hope that is intelligible!

[isobelw]

MaxD - thanks for clarifying that the MyHeritage record does indeed refer to the Durham Light Infantry soldier. As our James McKenzie does not appear to have left Dublin after his marriage in 1877, I agree that this must be a different James McKenzie.
Isobel