seeking baptism and burial for JOSEPH THORN of Tower hamlet

[hanes teulu]

There are 2 lengthy reports of the inquest in The Times, 25th and 27th Feb.

 

[Karenannie]

Hanes Teulu, am I able to access that online?

[Jomot]

This isn't how I found it, but to get the right one go into Card Catalog and select London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages & Burials 1538-1812.

From the dropdown that appears on the right select Tower Hamlets, then St Dunstan, then 1802-1808 & its image 17

[Karenannie]

Hi gain Jo Mot, I found the one you got your info from. I would have thought they were two different baptisms.. although their birth dates and parents are the same. the one i had was baptised at St. Mathews tower hamlet Bethnal Green,bap 20 feb 1803  whereas the one you have is  tower hamlet Stepney bqp 7 aug 1803.. two different Josephs born to exact same parents exact same day, just baptised  a few months apart.. whats your opinion on this?

[hanes teulu]

Hanes Teulu, am I able to access that online?

Will send you a Private message.

You can see a lengthy report of the inquest by googling -
"google books the very remarkable trial of john holloway and owen haggerty"

More than one google book will be returned and click on 'til you find one that allows you to "Search inside".
Use either "thorn" or "pieman" to locate Coroner's Inquest (starts on page 25)

[Karenannie]

thank you Hanes Teulu.

[Jomot]

Hi gain Jo Mot, I found the one you got your info from. I would have thought they were two different baptisms.. although their birth dates and parents are the same. the one i had was baptised at St. Mathews tower hamlet Bethnal Green,bap 20 feb 1803  whereas the one you have is  tower hamlet Stepney bqp 7 aug 1803.. two different Josephs born to exact same parents exact same day, just baptised  a few months apart.. whats your opinion on this?

Hmm, yes I can see now that I was looking at a different baptism to the church you stated in your first post, but it does seem rather coincidental to have two children with the same name born on the same day with the same parents.... 

Did your Joseph go out on the Lord Hungerford?  If so then his Tasmanian records also mention Mile End Old New Town (where it looks like he was a silk winder if I'm reading it right).  Also your Joseph had a son named Frederick and the Joseph baptised in Aug 1803 had a brother named Frederick so it does seem to tie up.  I wish I had the answer, but I don't!

Of course this also begs the question as to whether James is a brother to 'your' Joseph, as when Joseph Sr died he left four children according to the papers, and even if the two baptisms are the same person we now have 5 children - Mary, Frederick, Joseph, James & Ann !

[Jomot]

I've just looked up Joseph Jr's conviction and the theft took place at Old Montague Street.  If you look at a map of London you'll see that Old Montague Street intersects with Brick Lane, where they were living when the first two children were baptised.   I see from the census too that Joseph's mother was a silk weaver, which would connect with Joseph's occupation of silk winder.

I'm as confident as I can be that Joseph the baker/pieman is the correct father, and that for some unknown reason they baptised Joseph Jr twice.  Several other Rootschatters have come across a similar thing (type "baptised twice" into the search bar), but there doesn't seem to be any real explanation as to why.  Perhaps the 'poor' baptism was a bit of a miserable affair so they did it again 'properly' when they were solvent again, but had to go elsewhere as a church will not knowingly baptise you twice? 

You certainly have a unique cause of death in your line though... trampled whilst selling pies at an execution isn't something you come across every day!

[Karenannie]

Morning Jomot,
                      It does seem very likely that it's the same joseph. the 1841 census for James has a visitor named Ann Broad silk weaver, I straight away thought this could be his mother and that she'd re-married at some point, which I found and she was a widow when she married in 1809.  (which fits in with Joseph dying in 1807)
i believe James to be Josephs brother, otherwise Joseph is from a different family.
I'm wondering if if Mary, Ann, or Frederick died pre 1807. that would leave 4 children.
I'm off  now to have a look for possible deaths/burials.
Thank you very much for your input, you've been very helpful. if I can find a death/burial for one the children then my next step will be finding baptisms for Joseph and and Ann.
Karen