Author Topic: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were  (Read 1477 times)

Offline BronwenS

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Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« on: Friday 29 September 17 09:21 BST (UK) »
Mark Summers husband of Isabella Edmiston
B:1811 Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland
M:1828 May 18th Isabella Edmiston, Hamilton, Scotland

I have information going forward on both Mark and Isabella
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Offline ev

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Re: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« Reply #1 on: Friday 29 September 17 10:32 BST (UK) »
Hi ,

Scotlandspeople has a Mark Summers that died in 1874 , aged 63 , Hamilton Lanark.
Have you looked at that certificate ?


ev
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Online rosie17

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Re: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« Reply #2 on: Friday 29 September 17 10:33 BST (UK) »
You say you have all the information going forward so I am assuming you have his death certificate ..and no parent's names are mentioned ?

Rosie

Offline BronwenS

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Re: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« Reply #3 on: Friday 29 September 17 21:02 BST (UK) »
Many thanks for these tips.  I think I must have found his birth on another website, I don't have a certificate or a birth register to show for this, he is not on Scotland's people which I have used extensively and which I couldn't find it on.  I have now found the death certificate, thanks Ev.  He was illegitimate and his mother was Janet Barry, depending when she was born - I have just searched between 1785 and 1796, two possibilities for her so not sure how to go further on that side.  Thanks also to Rosie. 

I live in ChCh New Zealand and my surname is Summers.
Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh


Offline DonM

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Re: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« Reply #4 on: Friday 29 September 17 22:30 BST (UK) »
Go to SP download the OPR Birth for Mark Barr 1802 in Hamilton, I believe this may be your man.  I looked at Summer's death, the registrar's entry might be Barr not Barry.  The OPR page for the above Barr's birth is interesting in its self as it covers several Barr's over 10+ year period.

Don
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« Reply #5 on: Friday 29 September 17 22:38 BST (UK) »
The family is in the 1851 census in Hamilton: Mark Summers, 46, hand loom weaver; wife Isabella, 40, tambourer; Jane, 21, hand loom weaver; John, 11, hand loom weaver; Isabella, 5; Charles 2, all born in Hamilton.

Assuming his age is accurate he would have been born in 1806 or 1807.

In 1841 he is listed as a labourer, 25; Isabella, 25; Jean, 10; Janet, 4; John,2. Adults' ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so that would put his date of birth somewhere between 1811 and 1816.

In 1861 Mark is 50, giving a date of birth in 1810 or 1811. Isabella is also 50, and also in the household are Mark, 7 and Isabella, 3.

In 1871 both Mark and Isabella are 60, Mark jr is 18 and Isabella jr is 14.

You can and should look at the whole of the original census document, which will contain a lot of information not available in the index. There may also be other members of the household with different surnames.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« Reply #6 on: Friday 29 September 17 22:44 BST (UK) »
Go to SP download the OPR Birth for Mark Barr 1802 in Hamilton, I believe this may be your man.  I looked at Summer's death, the registrar's entry might be Barr not Barry.
What makes you think that, Don? The 1802 birth is the son of William Barr and Grisal Smith, not the son of Janet Barr or Barry.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline BronwenS

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Re: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 30 September 17 06:07 BST (UK) »
Thanks to all of you, I do have information on him from all of the census.  I think his mother was Janet Barry with a number of different options for her parents.  Any ideas about how to find his father?

nga mihi nui
Bronwen
Campbell, McKenzie, Ross, MacKay, Munro, Sutherland all of Ross & Comarty
Barry, Gibson, Watson, Summers, Edmonstone, Brock, McCartney all of Glasgow and environs
Erskine, Fletcher of Edinburgh

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Mark Summers born 1811, Hamilton, help with who his parents were
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 30 September 17 09:56 BST (UK) »
Ah, now, if you had said that at the outset I could have saved myself the effort of looking them up. I do hope that you have actually looked at the originals rather than just looking at some unreliable online transcription of notoriously questionable accuracy, for example Ancestry.  Mark's age in 1841, for example, may be a mistranscription because it is out of kilter with his age in later censuses.

That's probably why you think he was born in 1811. Ancestry and other web sites out there often (mis)'calculate' the date of birth by subtracting the age on the census from the year of the census. This gives a wrong answer three times out of four, because the census is taken about a quarter of the way through the year, so only a quarter of people have had their birthday in census year.

The available original UK census never gives a date of birth.

In the apparently almost complete absence of any baptisms or marriages of male Summers in Hamilton before 1800, finding Mark's father is likely to be a very difficult task indeed.

If Janet Barr(y) was an adherent of the Church of Scotland, and her pregnancy came to the attention of the Kirk Session, it is possible (almost probable) that the minutes of the Kirk Session might contain a record of her being summoned and interrogated about who the father was.

The Hamilton Kirk Session records for the period covering Mark Summers' birth are in the National Records of Scotland, and the volumes you would be interested in are CH2/465/11 covering 1790 to 1807, and CH2/465/12 covering 1807 to 1819.

The snag is that although they have been digitised, they are not available online. (Yet). At present you would need to go in person to the National Records of Scotland in Edinburgh, or to one of the local archives that have access to the NRS' digitised records, or hire a professional searcher* to search them on your behalf. Or you can wait in the hope that it won't be much longer now before Scotland's People add them to their resources, as they intend.

*You would be extraordinarily lucky if you were able to find a kind soul willing to do this for you free of charge. Even if you had an exact date of birth, trawling through a Kirk Session minute book from nine months before the birth to several years later is a very time-consuming task, and finding Janet Barr(y), assuming that she is mentioned at all, could involve starting at about 1804 and going on until at least the end on Vol 12 in 1819. If she isn't mentioned, your hypothetical kind soul could find her/himself spending a whole day or even more with no result to show at the end of it. That's a very big 'ask' for a volunteer.

If I were you, I would take a look at the death certificates of anyone surnamed Simmers, Sommers, Summers or Symmers in Hamilton and see if they provides any clues. From almost none in the 18th century, there are suddenly 7 S*mmers couples having children baptised after 1810 in Hamilton. There are 59 individuals in the FreeCEN transcription of the 1851 census of Hamilton, in at least 12 households. Of the heads of household, 5 were born in Hamilton, 2 in Dalserf, 4 in Cambusnethan and 1 in Ireland. But that sort of research really needs access to a Scotland's People Centre unless you are fairly flush with funds, and it may not actually yield anything useful in the end.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.