Martha Cox 1881 Census; Albert Edward Cox/Collins on passenger records 1896?

[Ladyhawk]

I have looked all over the GRO site (and successfully ordered and obtained 2 PDFs of birth and death certificates), but the links from the marriage certificates just seem to go around in circles (to the UK government site and then back to GRO again). 

Don't know if this might help or hinder you!!!!  Hope I haven't made a mistake or made it too complicated 

To order a marriage certficiate from GRO using this link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/app_select.asp
   
Start Application
schroll to heading
For events registered in England and Wales
then down  to
Marriage (England & Wales) click on the empty circle
then further down page go to heading
For all events
click circle for GRO index number choose either  yes or no
if you click  yes need to add Reference information from GRO Index
if click no A minimum of one name and forename for the same party must be given
You need to supply year in which the event registered
click submit
this takes you to next page headed
Application for an England and Wales marriage certificate
Fill in particulars of the couple to whom the cert. is required and any info. indicated by an asterik *
then choose which
Service options  ie click Standard Certificate by Post
if you scroll down to
For further information about postal options then click on the link
see Most customers want to know – this will explain more about postal options/costs etc…….

[Ladyhawk]

 And Edward is a daughter??

Oops that's my error Edward is son 

[lucymags]

Whew!

Okay, I think we can discount the hatters.

I have checked out some of the deaths and other records of the Betsy-William family.

Edwin is a boarder with a May family in Lambeth in 1871, a woodcutter aged 26, by which time all of his siblings and parents were presumably dead, with the exception perhaps of James, and sister Emily who may have got married (the trail went cold on her); dies in 1899.

No further clues there, although I did find a number of other James' deaths, including
COCK, JAMES        26   
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in ISLINGTON  Volume 01B  Page 128
i.e. but a Jun-July baby (both of the Jameses under consideration here) would have been born 1834 though. :-(
However, before the 1861 Census, in which James the railway clerk is boarding with the Finches in Islington - and James son of James and Jane is missing from the Truro census.
 

There's another one
COCK, JAMES        39   
GRO Reference: 1871  S Quarter in HAMPSTEAD  Volume 01A  Page 421
i.e. born 1831-2

And quite a few in other parts of Cornwall.

Thank you for those detailed instructions on ordering the marriage certificate, worked like a charm! I don't know why I couldn't find my way there before. My brain goes foggy sometimes. 

I will probably go ahead and order the marriage certificate but will leave it one more day in case something else turns up or clicks into place tomorrow. Not having the option of a PDF, it will take longer (and cost a few more quid).

I'd really like to know if the Ancestry authors had something definite, or just made an assumption on the marriage to Emily Woollcott? I like to document all of my references as I build records (at least on the major players). Is there any way of contacting them?

[lucymags]

Well I've now ordered the marriage certificate, so let's hope that it provides some definite proof one way or another, and hopefully arrives within 10 days. A shame that they haven't got the PDF option for those as well.

I found various records for the William Odgers Cock-Betsy Whitford family on FamilySearch too, but nothing that provides anything useful.

So back to Albert Edward for now... :-)

I thought that I'd try to see if I could complete the record for Albert's brother Frederick William; however can find no death record for him in GRO at all. This is what I have so far:

COCK, FREDERICK WILLIAM mmn WOOLLCOTT
GRO Reference: 1866 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 210

Frederick William Cock - Baptism 22 Apr 1866, St Mary Islington; born 26 Mar.
Father: James Cock, occ. Railway clerk; mother Emily. Abode Barnsbury St.

1871 Census, in Kenwyn (near Truro), Cornwall, aged 5: "England and Wales Census, 1871", database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFJD-7WJ : 23 June 2017), Frederick W Cock in entry for James Cock, 1871. Birthplace Clerkenwell (London).

There are a few possible marriages, but no firm links to other family members or other evidence of existence beyond 1871. (A few William Frederick Coxes die in WW1 in France, but there's no way of matching these up.)

Just in case anyone has any other ideas? I suspect that he died young and that Kate was Albert's only surviving sibling by the time he went back to England in 1904, but so far no definite proof of Frederick's death - why wasn't it recorded on GRO?

[lucymags]

I have been finding a few more records (including a branch of the Woollcott family that emigrated to Australia), and a possible fit for the death of Frederick William Cock, although it's odd that there's nothing from 1871 onwards, the location of death is a way away and the age out by a year or two:
COCK, FREDERICK WILLIAM 83 GRO Reference: 1948 M Quarter in SHEPPEY Volume 05B Page 727 

In the meantime, I've been able to get Albert's basic military record from FindMyPast as they're doing free military this weekend. :-) Not sure why his age is recorded as 16yr 6mth on the transcript, because now that I can see the handwritten document, it says 18yr 6mth on this. I've sent them a correction. Why he joined up in Halifax (working as a "waiter") is a mystery. So he joined the Duke Of Wellington's West Riding Regiment. No other records.

I suppose the the passport application I found for AE Collins on 24 June 1892 could be for his army travels. There's no info there and I don't remember where I found it.

The AE Cox on the Mexican in 1896 to Durban does fit his age, but why would he change his name for that (and wonder if he'd be able to, if his passport said Collins?).

I am revisiting other FindMyPast records and see this one, which must be the return journey after his son Cecil's birth in West Ham (any other info welcome).
Collins    A E    1872 —  1904    Passenger Lists Leaving Uk 1890-1960    Cape, South Africa

(There's also an Albert Cock listed twice, leaving UK for the Cape in 1901, but that date doesn't fit in, as his first son was born in Cape Town in March 1901.)

Edit: Albert's wife Martha (nee Carter) doesn't seem to be mentioned on the passenger lists to or from England around 1904 as Collins or Cock-Collins, but could either of these be her under her maiden name?
Carter    M    —    —    1903    Passenger Lists Leaving Uk 1890-1960    Cape, South Africa    
Carter    M    —    —    1904    Passenger Lists Leaving Uk 1890-1960    Cape, South Africa

[Ladyhawk]

I have been finding a few more records (including a branch of the Woollcott family that emigrated to Australia),

and  possible fit for the death of Frederick William Cock, although it's odd that there's nothing from 1871 onwards, the location of death is a way away and the age out by a year or two:

COCK, FREDERICK WILLIAM 83 1948 M Quarter in SHEPPEY Volume 05B Page 727 

No middle name there's this Frederick on the 1881 census a possibility?

Frederick Cock Age:   16 London, London, Middlesex Lodger Occupation: Shoeing Smith
RG11; Piece: 1378; Folio: 127; Page: 85

I believe this is the Frederick who died in 1948 Sheppey

1939 register Sheppey Kent
Frederick W   Cock   1864
Milli E Cock there's one more person on this record

8 Jul 1893 St Mary, Stoke Newington, Hackney
Frederick William Cock age 29 father Joseah Cock married Sophia Russ
Bp 10 Apr 1864 St Matthias Stoke Newington Hackney parents Josiah & Emma

His Army records on F M P confirm above marriage and death
Service number   20167 Regiment   Royal Engineers
Cock   Frederick William  1864   —   1906   British Army Service Records   London, Middlesex, England

children
Winifred Francis Emma 1894, Alice Sophia 1896, Francis George 1899, Albert Victor Godfrey 1902

Death certificate 15 Jan 1948 Sheppey, informant C G Cock son, 88 Alma Street Sheerness

Frederick  remarried 1907 Millie Elizabeth Odell –
First wife’s children Francis George 1899 & Albert Victor 1902
Charles Gordon 1907
details can be seen on his Army Records
number   95832 Regiment   Royal Engineers
Cock Frederick William  1864 —   1915   British Army Service Records   Middlesex, England

It looks as if you can rule out these FWC marriages

Marriage 1887 Bath
Frederick William C(aswell) Cock father Nathaniel Caswell Cock   
Ada Alberta Ashley

Banns (Bann)
Marriage Banns 22 Jul 1888 St Mary, Lambeth, Lambeth
Frederick William Cock father Frederick
Louisa Mary Brown

Marriage 1898 Paddington
Frederick William Cock age 34. M.D. his father Frederick, Physician
Frances Louisa Evans

marriage 1886 Chorlton
Frederick William Cock there's one female name missing looked at Lancashire BMD
1886 marriage Hulme, St. Michael  COCK   Frederick W   WALKER Alice   
you can view marriage cert. on family search  his father William

[lucymags]

Thanks so much for checking out all of those, Ladyhawk - much appreciated.

In the process of looking for your 1881 Frederick, I also came across:
a Frederick W Cox; age and place of birth matching, but working as a "Page" at an hotel in Hanover Square, aged 15. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK65-KQNW
and
a Frederick Cock who marries Sarah Jane Spiers in Oct-Dec 1884 (a bit young?) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DVB-NS9 (and has a child in 1888).
But that shoesmith is definitely a possibility... although I've just found an 1864 birth record of a Frederick born in Edmonton (same district as that shoesmith census record).

Hmmm, I just found this Frederick Cock born Islington, living in Union Rd, West Ham, "commercial traveller" with wife Wilhelmina and daughter in 1901: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NW-KL1 (Edit: Found a birth registration for a Frederick Cock in Islington Apr-Jun 1866 which is probably this one.)

Rather too many Fredericks around that time though!  I think I'll just have to go back to concentrating on Albert again for a while, sifting through everything again for clues...

[Ladyhawk]

Hmmm, I just found this Frederick Cock born Islington, living in Union Rd, West Ham, "commercial traveller" with wife Wilhelmina and daughter in
1901: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NW-KL1
(Edit: Found a birth registration for a Frederick Cock in Islington Apr-Jun 1866 which is probably this one.)

Rather too many Fredericks around that time though!

For info........

Ada Wilhelmina Vincent COCKS mother mmn HILL, Ada is with her BEDFORD relatives
in 1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXY-T5R
GRO indexes Violet F E Bedford born 1898 mmn HOW

marriage Jun 1896   W. Ham
COCKS Frederick   
female name on same page
HILL Wilhelmina Vincent

COCKS Frederick  died Dec 1902 W. Ham   age 36 (1866)

COCKS Wilhelmina Vincent remarries  Mar 1906 W. Ham
COXON    Richard Henry   or
HOW Ralph Dixon

death Mar West Ham 1908
HOW Wilhelmina Vincent age 36

Unfortunately marriage of Frederick to Wilhelmina not available to view on line to check his father's name and as you say there are quite a number of Frederick's born around same time    

[lucymags]

Yes... Having chased down various trails, I think I'll give up on Frederick again (at least for now). 

I have, however (with a bit of help from Shaun via PM) managed to see all of Albert C-C's military records held on FindMyPast, since I downloaded them for free on their weekend special! So that's great - I've been transcribing it all and will build his record up from that.

Then today decided to start having another look at the Emily Kate Collins (Cock)/Kate Cox and William Collins records. I think I've found her death record (not sure how I missed it before!):
COLLINS, EMILY  KATE      70   
GRO Reference: 1935  M Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 52
(b.1864)
and possibly William's:
COLLINS, WILLIAM  EDWARD      68   
GRO Reference: 1932  J Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 220
(b.1863-4).

And having looked more closely at all of the records that you (Ladyhawk) supplied about the William-Eliza Willbourne/Willburn records, I think that they could fit.
William Collins snr and Eliza Willbourne  get married 28 May 1855 (males all labourers).
They have Eliza Elizabeth COLLINS Jun 1856 Hackney.
Then have twin boys Dec 1857, William Edwin/Edward and Richard Thomas, who both die as infants.

By 1861, William is a wine maker Methodist Lay Preacher, and Eliza Sr a laundress. Eliza Jr aged 5. 18 Brunswick Terrace, Hackney. (Which no longer exists but I found some refs to it, e.g. https://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/Hackney/BrunswickArms.shtml )

1863 Oct-Dec another William is born - and I'm wondering if this record on GRO
COLLINS, WILLIAM  COWARD      mmn WILLBURN 
GRO Reference: 1863  D Quarter in HACKNEY  Volume 01B  Page 408
may have been mistranscribed and supposed to be William Edward.

1871 - William Sr wine maker, living next door to Hackney Methodist Church though (London Fields, near Pacifico's Alms Houses, area mentioned here - http://edithsstreets.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/). Eliza is 15, William is 7.

The dates seem to fit, so if I don't find a hitch when I run through it all again tomorrow, think that I will order the William-Emily Kate marriage perhaps the William Edward birth certificates. I think that's the only way to get clarity on this family.