Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin

[rossko57]

Cap badge detail sure looks like just a Tudor crown,  no anchors, foliage or frills, i.e. not Navy after 1880

The only official uniform I can find in period with only a crown .... Prison Officer  !?!    Never with the nautical double-breasted tunic though. I wondered about the many prison hulks on the Thames - gone before 1890

Intriguing.

[aus*jen]

Thanks for your interest Malcolm,  have posted a higher resolution photo of cap only.

Regards,
Jen.

[aus*jen]

Thanks for your expertise Jim.   You have eliminated this army man as a contender for the subject
of the photo.

Regards,
Jen.

[aus*jen]

Hi Daisy,   Thanks for solving my R.F.R.A. question on 1911 census as Royal Field Reserve
                Artillery.  An army man as Jim confirmed, so not a contender for the subject of the
                photo.

Regards,
Jen.

[aus*jen]

Hi rossko57,   You certainly are tenacious on this one with no stone unturned, thanks so much!
                     
                      Have looked at all your comments and links.  Have followed through with the
                      National Archives Navy records and looked again at 1911 census for the final
                      contender.

                      1911 revealed that he lived in Barford, Wymondham, Norfolk.  Not sure how that
                      connects to Grays Essex where photo was taken?  Occupation was
                      "payments Royal Navy"  In 1901 census he was on Caledonia which Google reveals
                      was a Naval Base in Rosyth, Scotland.

                       NA records show he was appointed in 1896 and his rank was Fleet Paymaster.
                       Maybe the vertical cuff stripes could indicate Assistant Paymaster or Paymaster.

                       In your opinion could the unidentified uniform be a Royal Navy Paymaster's
                       uniform?   Perhaps the cap had a Tudor crown without other embellishment
                       because he was in an administrative role?

                       Could be grasping at straws here.

Regards,
Jen.

[John915]

Good morning,

In answer to your last question, no. RN officers were divided into two branches, executive and civil. All wore the same cuff braid according to rank but executive or deck officers had the curl above top ring. Civil officers had no curl but had coloured bands between rings. White for accountants which included paymasters and secretarys, the highest rank normally for paymaster was captain, 4 rings.

I have searched endless sites but not find those cuff stripes anywhere but I would say not RN. No RN personnel wear that cap badge either as rossko57 said earlier. Pity we can't see the buttons more clearly, RN have a rope edge with fouled anchor in centre.

John915

PS. rossko57s link shows the rank braid for paymasters.

PPS. Curls were added for all branches in 1918 to standardise them.

[aus*jen]

Good evening John915,  Thankyou for your comments on my recent question, not the answer I
                                    had hoped for.  Might have to look again for other possible contenders.

Regards,
Jen.

[rossko57]

Golly, the RN Paymaster career looks tempting.
I've seen mention of cadets in this branch, which might go with minimal cuff decoration.
But the badge/buttons appearance are a huge blocker.

Just to add chaos - I have found period Tramway companies often favoured double breasted uniforms, right down to the lapel buttons.  Example
http://www.tramwaybadgesandbuttons.com/page148/page4/styled-80/page150.html

You would expect a tram man to wear a number (maybe even mandatory under the operating licence)  But perhaps this is a new boy, no number issued yet.  Or depot staff were uniformed but not numbered (seems unlikely)
Again the apparent crown badge is a strong counter.

[aus*jen]

Hello rossko57,  Thanks for your thoughts re tramway and the link.  Agree the cap badge would
                         rule tramway out.

                         The origin of the 2 photos would be 2 grandmothers sending photos from the UK
                         to family in Aust. most likely of grandsons or nephews.  Six males were in that
                         category and have looked at occupations for those 6.  One of those stated in 1901
                         census that he was a ship driller Royal Navy dockyard.  In 1911 he stated he was
                         stoker -  H.M. Dockyard (Admiralty) When asked the question on "relation to
                         head" he answered "crew".  Just a tad confusing, but I imagine he wouldn't wear
                         a uniform for this occupation.

                         There was a remarriage to a widow with family - 2 sons - they are next!

                         Have attempted a scan of a top button on the uniform, the insignia is not too
                         obvious unfortunately.

Regards,
Jen.