Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin

[John915]

Good morning,

I have to say i'm impressed with rossko57s tenacity in this. However I have to disagree with some of his views.

The cuffs definately have vertical bullion stripes, in very thin double strips. Blow it right up and you can see it. 

The cap badge is definately a crown, in brass. The blow up posted shows this very well. An anchor would not look as flat across the bottom and would not have the fluer de lis which show clearly. His links show very clearly that the naval cap badges are bullion on a padded backing. They are very stiff and hold the front of the hat upright and not drooping like the OPs photo.

Depending on the era 3 button cuffs had sewn in pleats running down from them which is what I think he has seen.

Lastly, just a little point, the lapels are neither buttoned or unbuttoned in the different examples shown. The V notch in the lapel is merely tucked under the button in some pictures.

Will put up another good link when I get to my laptop tomorrow.

John915

[aus*jen]

Thankyou John915, I appreciate your interest and your comments. Look forward to the link.

Regards,
Jen.

[John915]

Good morning,

Took me a while to find this again, but here is the link; http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

It is an extensive site but has loads of photos. I will see if I can do some links to relevant sections.

John915

Added; http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Uniform/Index.html
           http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Uniform/Phot/Index.html

[aus*jen]

Hello John915,   Thankyou for the link, some good information there.

Re the buttons - you mentioned in reply #41 that RN have a rope edge with fouled anchor in the
centre.  The first of your added links has info. on buttons in indexed item 'Uniform Regulations for
Petty Officers' dated Feb. 1897.  The buttons mentioned there are similar to those on the unidentified uniform.

Regards,
Jen.

[aus*jen]

Here is an enlargement of the cuff detail, it looks singular to me.

Jen.

[rossko57]

Sure looks like a double row of stitching, not chalk or simple tailoring.  Stitching is like a representation of slashes with bound edges, like giant buttonholes.  Almost a Tudor throwback.
Or maybe just braid with a coloured centre trace.

Damned odd - not seen anything like those.

We can see the cuffs are cuffs i.e. folded back and stitched.  Doesn't help!

[aus*jen]

It could be a braid Rossko,  the stripe on the right appears to be fraying slightly at the cuff
where it meets the shirt.  If it is a sewn stripe - Navy regulations most likely determined the
width of the stripe.   In the link from John915 it mentions that often Navy men bought sewing machines and sewed their own uniforms, also making extra money sewing uniforms for others.
The stitch used for the stripe would be satin stitch (used for buttonholes).  A quarter inch stripe
would probably require 2 rows close together.  The stripes on the cuff in this photo are very straight
and are most likely sewn on a commercial machine by an experienced seamstress.

The stripe on the right has pulled the edge of the cuff down at the top suggesting it was added
to the uniform at a later date probably when that particular rank was achieved.  The stripes are
on top of the sewing on the cuff.

If it is two rows of stitching close together I still think it represents a single stripe made to a
regulation width.

Jen.

[rossko57]

Arr .. but .. there are no RN regulations permitting vertical braid at the cuffs.  (I would guess we are looking at 1897-1910 regs here).  The regs call the usual rings "lace", gold braid to non-tailors like me.  The key thing is every last man in the maritime world knew these were to be applied as rings around the sleeve.  To be clear, those are not RN rank indicators.
Potentially some local significance ("best in class", "most senior dockyard chippy") but that would be a real stretch against regulations.
Setting that weirdness aside for a mo ...

----

The style of jacket is entirely consistent with RN, and coastguard etc.  And of course with any number of nautical civilian orgs and companies who took RN as their fashion leader.  And any amount of ex-RN men who went to a civvy job and used their old togs with rank stripped and buttons (probably) changed.

if he were RN, we can say that the eight-button layout is consistent only with an officer.  That would include Warrant Officer ranks, but not petty officers.  Officers of course get rings, or collar tabs for midshipmen/cadets.  So, to the exception ...

I've seen in 1897 regs that two of the then three types of W/O (Boatswain and Gunner) are given a ring at the cuff.  Significantly, the Carpenter is not included there.  Interpretation is that he doesn't get a ring, and we seem to have photo proof of that in the posed photo of the three pipe-smoking W/O.

So our photo man could be a Carpenter by his buttons-and-no-ring combination.  Carpenter, whose job is essentially caring for the fabric of the ship, would be a likely career path for a dockyard man.
But only if his buttons and cap badge are RN of course.   I'm unconvinced by the crown-only reading of that, but it's a bigger stretch still to make it into the W/Os expected anchor with oak leaves and crown topper.

More but - a W/O comes up from the lower ratings, via petty officer, and would be a man of 15-20 years experience.  Our fellow looks too young?

We must remember that Navy family links add confusion when we look at old census records; words like carpenter, shipwright, blacksmith we recognise as skills/trades for civilians or sailors/dockyard types. But for RN they are also specific ranks.  An RN Carpenter in the ironclad navy may not have much history of woodworking; a woodworking sailor may hold some other rank; a dockyard chippy may be a civilian or not.  What would these guys write on various forms?  "depends"

It'd be nice to make this man into one of the navy family, but we're not there yet.  Pinning the cap badge down would be a huge step.

----

I'm confident now this photo is NOT the eventual Fleet Paymaster.  To get to those lofty heights, he would have to sign up as Cadet or Assistant Clerk, embryo officers with eight buttons indeed but with collar tabs or cuff ring; nor is the photo any rank inbetween.

[aus*jen]

Thanks Rossko57 for the in depth analysis of RN uniforms, I will comment in a later post.

For the present, setting aside the RN uniform/non RN uniform debate let's look at the photograph
from the family historian point of view.

It is located in a postcard album in chronological order from early 1900's to approx. 1925.
The owner of this album was the daughter of a couple who emigrated from Hampshire UK to
Australia.  The album contains multiple postcards, greeting cards and photographs from her
grandparents who remained in Hampshire.  The photograph of the uniformed man is on the same
page as the group photo posted on reply #3.  The reverse of both these postcards is divided
signifying a date post 1902.  I note the similar features of the man in uniform to the man on the
right in the group photo indicating a possible relationship, brother or cousin perhaps.

The dating experts on this forum have given a date for the uniform photo of 1908-12 based on the
style of collar which was worn during that time frame.  The collars in the group photo differ from
this collar, perhaps this photo could be slightly earlier.

Census records are a sound basis for further research so let's look at those for possible contenders for the subject of the uniform photo.  There are 4 families.  The head of each of these families has
maritime connections, a Writer HM Dockyard, 2 x Shipwrights HM Dockyard and a Fleet Engineer
Royal Navy.   There are 7 sons born in the correct time frame who could be the
subject of the uniform photo.

The census records a Postal Worker, an Army serviceman, a house framer, a Dockyard worker
(ship driller), a Dockyard worker (sailmaker), a carpenter and a Paymaster RN. 

The last census for the house framer was 1881 indicating either emigration or death.
He died in 1886 age 19.
 

We can rule out the Postal Worker as the Postal Museum has confirmed it is not a Postal uniform
and the Army serviceman.

The carpenter emigrated to Canada in 1906  (Ancestry emigration records and Canada census)
Last UK census for him was 1901.  His date of emigration predates the photo.

Two dockyard workers and a Paymaster remain for consideration.  The uniformed man is
one of these three men.  There is an employment record at the Royal Dockyard for the sailmaker,
born 1878, worked at the Dockyard from 1899-1938.  There is no RN record for him at National Archives.  The ship driller born 1870 has no online record at the Royal Dockyard but has a RN
record at NA.  A short stint in the RN, May - Oct. 1889. 

The Paymaster born 1878 joined the Navy in 1896 as Assistant Clerk.  By 1903 he was Assistant
Paymaster and by 1908 Paymaster at Cape of Good Hope Dockyard where he remained until 1911.
He is recorded in 1911 census at Portsmouth.  In 1914 he was serving in WW1, 1916 was Fleet
Paymaster and by the end of that year Paymaster Commander.

Turning attention to the Dockyard, I made an enquiry at the Dockyard at Portsmouth to determine
if dockyard workers wore uniforms.  I am waiting for a response to that query.

The RN Museum at Portsmouth and the Maritime Museum at Greenwich also have a copy of the
photo for consideration and will respond in due course. 

If I am correct in identifying the family group, the parents of this group are first cousins.
They are also both first cousins to the Paymaster's mother.  Setting the RN uniform debate aside
this fact also increases the likelihood of the uniformed man being a cousin, the likeness to the
man on the right in the group is striking.  The dating experts on this forum have given the group a date of 1908-12.  Based on this date it could be reasonable to suggest that this photo was taken after the emigration of the carpenter and that the two men recorded are the ship driller and the
sailmaker. 

Jen.