Frances Eleanor Barrett

[candrjm]

Hi Carol,

On the 1st page of this thread you mention that Emily Sarah Barrett born c1844, (sister of Frances Eleanor Barrett) married George Rowell/Rowell?

Marriage:
March  Quarter 1865   
Barrett    Emily Sarah        Abingdon    2c   423    
Rowell    George Joseph         Abingdon    2c   423   
 

This looks like them in the 1881 census:

Abode: Alfred Street Headington Oxfordshire

Head: George J Rowell aged 38 born Oxfordshire occ: Master Decorator
Wife: Emily S aged 37 born Northamptonshire
Dau: Hilda M aged 7 born Oxfordshire
Dau: Emily B aged 6 born Oxfordshire
Dau: E Mary aged 4 born Oxfordshire
Dau: Ethel M aged 8 born Oxfordshire
Dau: Hettie L aged 1 born Oxfordshire

Birth reg for Hettie:

ROWELL, HETTIE  LENORA      mother's maiden name BARRETT      
GRO Reference: 1879  D Quarter in HEADINGTON  Volume 03A  Page 686

Death reg for Hettie:

Deaths Dec 1963   
ROWELL    HETTIE L    aged 84    WATFORD    4B   292


This would make Hettie L Rowell and Lionel Clarke cousins.

Looking at the notes in the family tree recorded on the familysearch website (link given on page 3 by me, (I don't have access to trees on Ancestry so can't see if the trees recorded on this site have the same notes)) there is mention of a Hettie Rowell a cousin of Lionel Clarke corresponding with Lionel's son Richard about his family history.



Re: John Walker Wall

Baptism:

Name    John Walker Wall
Gender    Male
Christening Date    07 Jan 1838
Christening Date (Original)    07 JAN 1838
Christening Place    ST ANDREW,DROITWICH,WORCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name    George Wall
Mother's Name    Maria

Marries Mary Ann Wyatt in 1865 in Droitwich Worcester



Possible brother for John:

Name    William Wall
Gender    Male
Christening Date    31 May 1835
Christening Date (Original)    31 MAY 1835
Christening Place    ST ANDREW,DROITWICH,WORCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name    George Wall
Mother's Name    Maria

Marries Louisa Wyatt in 1860 in Droitwich Worcester


Louisa and Mary Ann possibly sisters:

Baptisms:

Name    Mary Ann Wyatt
Gender    Female
Christening Date    30 Nov 1839
Christening Date (Original)    30 NOV 1839
Christening Place    FECKENHAM,WORCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name    Joseph Wyatt
Mother's Name    Mary Ann



Name    Louisa Wyatt
Gender    Female
Christening Date    10 Jan 1841
Christening Date (Original)    10 JAN 1841
Christening Place    FECKENHAM,WORCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name    Joseph Wyatt
Mother's Name    Mary Ann


 
1871 census already given previously



William H Wall 35 born Droitwich
Louisa 30 born Feckenham
Anne 9 born Stoke Proir
Mary L 8 born Stoke Prior
Maria K 6 born Stoke Prior
Ada Ellen 4 born Stoke Prior
Emily W 2 born Stoke Prior
George H 10 months born Stoke Prior


1871 census:

Broom Bidford Warwickshire:

John Walker Wall aged 32 born Droitwich
Mary Anne aged 31 born Feckenham
Maria Sarah aged 4 born Bedford
Edith Mary aged 3 born Bedford
Annie Louisa aged 2 born Bedford
Amy Gertrude aged 0 born Bedford


Census for Anne Wall (highlighted in bold in the 1871 census above) would suggest that she was John Walker Wall's niece and as Frances was a visitor here in 1881 she could have met Anne's uncle resulting in the birth of Lionel.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-T7YH

Chris

[Daisypetal]

Hi,

Regarding a marriage for Frances to a TILL, Ciderdrinker gave a possibility in reply 5,


11 Aug 1902
Trinity Church, Parish of Marylebone

John Stanley TILL
52
Bachelor
Clerk in Holy Orders
Ticehurst Sussex
Father:  John TILL deceased,  Clerk in Holy Orders.

Frances Ella BARRETT
45
Spinster
56 Devonshire St
Father:  Frederick William BARRETT deceased, Gentleman.
wit Emily Sarah TILL, Mary SANDYS and Edward William ANDREWS


You say in reply 8 that she is Frances Ema but the image of the original certificate looks like Frances Ella, why do you think she is Frances Ema?

I wish that I could find her in 1901 and 1911


Daisy

[candrjm]

Hi,

In the 1891 census Frances records her son as her nephew! Why? ( to protect her reputation?)

If that is her marring in 1902 perhaps she muddied the waters a little to hide her past.

On the familysearch website record for Lionel C Clarke's immigration record (7th July 1900) his last address is recorded as Cranbrook. (so possibly in Kent).

On the original record in the columns headed Whether ever before  in the US, if so when and where and Whether going to join a relative, and if so,  what relative, their name and address, does it reads cousin Chas Till with a correction of No and No written over the top? (Opinions please!)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9TH-N394-7?i=411&cc=1368704

Chris

[Milliepede]

I can see it says "by whom was passage paid" - Aunt

Not sure which writing was written first.  Would it be the No and No was in the same writing and the paler writing was added afterwards?

Agree it does look like cousin Chas Till. 

Naturalisation papers for Lionel Conrad Clarke born 18 May 1884 Cheltenham.

[candrjm]

Thanks Milliepede, my main interest in the query was confimation of the surname Till.

There seems to be a query as to whether it was Lionel's mother Frances who married John Stanley Till in 1902. Just looking to find any possible  links between the Till/Barretts.



Carol,

The family tree (link on page 3) has a death for Frances Eleanor Barrett 1st March 1931 California, same date as death for Frances Eleanor Till.

Chris

[Daisypetal]

I also think it says cousin Chas TILL, and I think it says Lightwood Cottage ?? over the original final destination.

Daisy

[Kiwi Carol]

I am beginning to feel a bit overwhelmed with all the info. Firstly I'm sure that Frances Ella who married John S Till in 1902 is not my Frances because the father is Frederick William - wrong. So we need to discount the info about the Tills
Secondly it is possible that the 1881 census entry is correct > There is a Frances E M Wall  but born 1889 with mother Roseina Wall - not mine.
Thirdly Lionel Conrad Clarke is NOTHING to do with my Frances. Without getting the certificate, I am pretty sure that my Frances Ellen/Eleanor had Lionel BARRETT Clarke in 1884 in Bath; he is the 'nephew' on the 1891 census. This type of listing is relatively common I believe to protect the mother's reputation, as candrjm suggests. Please don't confuse Lionel Conrad with Lionel Barrett - they are two separate people.
I shall have a closer look at Emily Sarah and see what I can find and whether it matches up.
Thank yo all for your continuing interest and help.
Carol

[Daisypetal]

Hi,

I'm sorry if you are feeling a bit overwhelmed, I'm sure we've all felt like that at some point when our family tree seems to have knotted branches 



Have you discounted the notes on the link given to you by candrjm? 

I expect you did but just in case you didn't see it, if you click on John Walker/Wall/ there are some notes to the right,

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:SRYL-MY7

For others who may not have access they say,

"Birth certificate of Lionel Conrad CLARKE (LCC) indicates Anthony CLARKE as his father. Research by Richard Conrad CLARKE (RCC, son of LCC), however, has indicated that LCC was probably the illegitimate child of Frances Eleanor BARRETT and John Walker WALL. Correspondence with a contemporary of LCC, Hettie ROWELL, a cousin of LCC living in England, has indicated that the family in England all believed that Mr. WALL was the father and Frances the mother. LCC would never confirm this, nor deny it, and RCC was not even certain if LCC knew who his father was.
Attested: Richard Conrad CLARKE."


This sounds like they have seen the birth cert. of Lionel Conrad CLARKE

I do wonder why they gave Lionel the CLARKE surname if he was really a WALL?

Do you have any info about Lionel Barrett CLARKE after 1891 to show that he isn't Lionel Conrad CLARKE?



Also regarding the Frances Ella BARRETT marriage to John Stanley TILL,  she could have been fibbing about her father.  I can't find a birth for a Frances Ella BARRETT anywhere.


I think finding Frances in 1901 and/or 1911 would be very helpful, but she seems to have vanished


I'm sorry if my mind wandering off into possibilities confuses it even more but you never know, there may be some sense in there somewhere


Regards,
Daisy

[Milliepede]

That's interesting about the birth certificate for Lionel indicating Anthony Clarke as the father.

Has the address on the marriage for Frances and John Till been checked on the 1901 census?

56 Devonshire St

I wonder where they met.  In 1901 John is in Ticehurst Sussex.  Thinking that might lead to finding Frances.