Fate of Everest Anseline after time on 'The Vernon'

[majm]

Don't build your hopes up just yet,  but ... the clergy in many denominations kept two registers concurrently.   So, for example, one in a safe place within the Church building, and one in a safe place within the Manse.  And, ... many clergy kept diaries ... so depending on the habits of the clergyman who married the couple at Carcoar in 1871, it may be that the info was recorded in one registry and only a summary transferred across to the other 'back up'registry OR even perhaps the clergy transmitted only a summary to the Bishop.  I am sure only a summary went to the NSW Reg Gen, and I am sure you are familiar with that process.     its the late Nick Vine-Hall's technique to seek out the original of the original that I am suggesting.       Aim to get hold of every possible 'record'of that marriage to seek out each piece of information.    

  

JM

[majm]

So, aim for the record that actually includes the real signatures (or marks) made by the couple  and work forward from that 

JM

[brothers-searcher]

Just by way of clarification, the parish registers that were copied by the Society of Australian Genealogists as part of their Joint Copy Project were supplied by the Archivist at the Bathurst Diocese and are referred to in the document linked on http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/?i=74&diocesan-archives about Family History Researchers Policy.

Lorraine

[brothers-searcher]

I had another look at the registers for Carcoar, this time the baptism register.
On the 20th July 1871 there were three Anseline children baptised.
Julia - born July 1864; Emily - born 12 August 1866; Alfred - born 12 September 1868.
The birth of Emily is probably not right as we know there was a son, Jules born 18 April 1866 and died 4 May 1866. I suspect, as it was some years later, that the memory was not accurate (all birth dates should probably be treated as incorrect).

Lorraine

[majm]

Hi Lorraine,

Have you considered contacting Gold prospector to share and compare your family research, swap documents and oral histories?

I am not a family member, but I do have a long standing interest in the Central West of NSW in the 1800s, not just family history, but also local and applied history for anything west of say Mt Victoria ...  and so too do several of my own living elderly relatives, including retired clergy and retired NSW BDM senior officers, and retired Archivists (originally NSW but then seconded to Canberra). 

One of these  rellies was involved in the practical issues back when SAG was involved in the filming of the parish registers.   So, it is possible that the Carcoar register that was filmed was perhaps not the one that should have those elusive details.   Some denominations did not enforce the concept of back up registers, but I have found various unfilmed parish registers in all sorts of 'odd' places ...

Here is a long thread that I prepared ages ago and have updated several times, re those elusive blanks on those NSW BDM marriage certs.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0

JM

[Gold prospector]

Hi Lorraine,
Thank you for your email.
We first communicated on Ancestry a couple of years ago!
I can certainly validate your discoveries to date including the 3 Baptisms on July 20, 1871 and the marriage of Jules and Mary the following day in Frenchmans Reef.
In fact, I had come by that information through email contact with the Bathurst Archivist recently in an attempt to discover where Everest was born (my current guess is 'near Parkes', Welcome Lead).
I must say that JM has been extremely helpful in guiding my enquiries and I would refer you to a thread I started in August entitled,'Jules F Anseline, Mauritius, Gold and Slaves'.
My 'brick wall' at the moment is not being able to find anything that Jules said about himself that would assist us back to Mauritius.
Cheers,
Gold Prospector

[brothers-searcher]

Paul,
I went back to see when that earlier communication was and was surprised to see it was back in 2009 - almost 10 years ago. I have been busy with other lines and family commitments - not to mention work. It is good to be in contact again.

So on to this present line of discussion;

After Julia Anseline (Everest's sister) married Thomas Nestor on November 10, 1883, in Sydney, her subsequent life journey is a mystery until she eventually turned up in Broken Hill (reunited with her mother, Mary Anseline/McRae) where, in 1897, she was in and out of gaol on prostitution charges.

On the birth transcripts for James Ernest NESTOR 1888 is shown as being born at Junction Mine near Broken Hill, and aside from the other details recorded - there is - Present at Birth - Mary Anseline is shown.
John Alfred NESTOR 1894 was born at Crystal Street Broken Hill is shown as illegitimate and Present at his birth was Mary McRae.
These clearly show that Julia/Julietta was reunited with her mother at least as early as 1888.

An aside:
I noted that there was some discussion about a Louis ANSELINE - I found his arrival in Victoria in 1853 on Sans Parella - all 25 on the page are listed as Gold Seekers and are recorded as British Subjects Natives of Mauritius (Meaning they were born there) - just for interest.

I also found an unclaimed Ships letter - that is one coming by ship not from within Victoria - for a Jules ANSELINE in in the Victorian Government Gazette dated 27 January 1859. This indicates that Jules was expected to be in Victoria at that date. I have been unable to locate an arrival record for Jules ANSELINE to date.

There is also that Unclaimed Letter (Inland Letters) to Monsieur Jules ANSELINE in 14 September 1875 indicating he was expected to be in St Vincent's Hospital. His death certificate indicates he was at the Sydney Infirmary for 4 days. I have sent an email to the St Vincent's archives office to see if it is possible that any record of his time in St Vincent's survives (a long shot I know but I have long wondered what happened to him and there doesn't seem to be a report in the newspapers)

Anyway that is my bit for now.
Lorraine

[Gold prospector]

Hi Lorraine,

Yes, I have also found Julia's story after her 1883 Nestor marriage to be a mystery until Broken Hill.
As you probably read from the above thread, I was trying to work out whether the 'Thomas Nestor' she married was the one who died, aged 24 years, in Sydney Hospital from TB on 23rd December 1888 or another 'Thomas Nestor' who had a long history of petty crime in Sydney (see Trove) at least until 1893 when he was sent to Bathurst Gaol as 'Thomas Hynes' (nee Nestor). After that, I've lost any trace of him (maybe because of another name change or because he came to a 'messy' end!).

So, could the two Nestor boys, James and John, born 1888 and 1894, have both been illegitimate? Were the Broken Hill birth transcripts you mentioned their Birth Certificates?

Finally, I haven't been able to find any documents on her after 1898 - however, there is a family story from my older cousin who said that Everest came home one day with the young boys and said to his wife, Sarah, 'we're going to have to raise them now...' There is evidence that they assumed the Anseline surname - I think I got that off Ancestry but will check again.

That information you have on Louis Anseline is indeed interesting - were the 25 other gold seekers, on the ship, named or were they just '25 others'? (Incidentally, on the other RootsChat thread, 'Jules F Anseline, Mauritius, gold and slaves' from August this year, there is a bit more on Louis Cambronne Anseline, for your information).

Good luck with the St Vincents Hospital enquiry (I phoned Sydney Hospital some years ago to ask about any archival records on Jules Francois' terminal care there but was greeted with a polite chuckle!)

I know we're jumping about a bit here, but, in relation to Mary's second husband, Charles Gray McRae (your ancestor), I read somewhere he was born in Cleveland, Ohio, in the USA but have lost track of the source. Did you ever track his birthplace down to Cleveland?

Sorry - there are 4 questions there for you thoughts!

There are so many interesting potential stories in our family history, but I guess we should try and stay focussed!

Paul.

[brothers-searcher]

Paul,
The transcripts are from NSW birth registrations - through one of the transcriptions agents
I believe that since Thomas Nestor is named as the father of James - he is his father.
Since there is no name in the father field on John's registration he would have been illegitimate.

Interesting - the story about Everest and Sarah taking the boys - would be really good to know when that happened - we can keep on dreaming there I guess.

I have both boys under the name of ANSELINE in electoral rolls living in the same address in Broken Hill (522 Crystal Street). There are newspaper articles relating to a James (Jimmy) ANSELINE claiming compensation and later his death notices in Broken Hill. Dying in 1945 (variously recorded as James Ernest Anseline or James Everest Anseline). I have tagged all these articles with the names so that they come up towards the top of the results list when searching on Trove.

John Alfred ANSELINE appears to have ended up in South Australia (he was a blacksmith) - I have a marriage for a John Alfred ANSELINE to a Maud KING in 1948. He died in Adelaide in 1966 and is buried in West Terrace Cemetery. I haven't proof that this is the same person as the one in Broken Hill except that the name doesn't seem to appear in the electoral rolls after 1937.

Julia is certainly a problem - though the index to the gaol records seem to end in 1898 which might explain that. A visit to State Archives might reveal more - I have been able to see the registers for other family gaol birds from the 1920s so it is always possible there is more to see that is not indexed online as yet. She doesn't appear in the bdm indexes for South Australia or NSW or Qld under Anseline or Nestor.

The immigration of Louis ANSELINE is the digital copy of the shipping list and has all passengers named - also has the cabin passengers named on another page. There were only 36 passengers on board and the ship had called at Adelaide dropping off and picking up passengers there before continuing on to Melbourne.

I am not holding my breath for the St Vincent's archives - I just thought it is worth asking - you just never know.

Charles Gray MACRAE states on the birth of Agnes that he was born in Cleveland Ohio, his death certificate and marriage both show him being born in America.
I have the marriage of those I believe to be his parents - Pipe Major Alexander McKenzie Fraser MACRAE 71st Highland Regiment Light Infantry and Agnes HARDIE in Edinburgh in 1835. The regiment then went to Canada and fought in the region around Toronto. I have recollections of seeing that the couple then went to America and Cleveland is just across the Great Lakes from the Toronto region. The Lieutenant-Colonel of the Regiment was, at the time Charles Grey or Gray - Speculative but possible. I haven't, as yet, found the birth record (not unusual for US birth records for the time) and I haven't found his arrival in Australia. I also haven't found his father anywhere listed as a Customs Officer except on Charles Gray MACRAE's death certificate.

I think that answers the questions you posed - let me know if you want anything else. I live close to State Archives so don't hesitate to ask for lookups - I work full time but can get there.

Lorraine