MacGregors, Callander

[ElaineSK]

Hi John
The Donald/Mary and son John McGrigor is certainly a puzzle, have just been looking on Scotland's People website and found two lots of od Donald and Mary with son John but several years apart, both in Parish of Callander, i have some credits left so will buy the 2 copies of birth certificates to see what other info shows up on them to figure out which one is mine or if they are same parents and child but different birth dates.  Will let  you know, it is a pity I can't upload them here.  Anyways, this is the 2  which strangely is one after the other in the list of John MCGrigors born between 1758 and 1763.  I'll look closer at the info you have given me above and have a read of the link as well. Thanks.
MCGRIGOR
JOHN
DONALD MCGRIGOR/MARY MCLAREN FR170 (FR170)
M
30/09/1762
336/
10 164
Callander
. (6 credits)
MCGRIGOR
JOHN
DONALD MCGRIGOR/MARY MCLERAN FR153 (FR153)
M
01/11/1758
336/
10 147
Callander

Edit: Not much more info on the birth certificates than what is written above though spelling of McLaren and McLeran is different, so weird. I need to have another look at the copies that Myra compiled together  that she got from the archivist.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi,

The actual registers are copyrighted, so you can’t upload them. But the two Johns should be the same as the transcripts I gave you above. One from Coilantogle, the other Milntown, which are next to each other. Why are you looking in Callander when the family lived in Caputh? Do you have something which says they moved from Callander?

John.

[Forfarian]

Yes, I think the parish registers record the reading of banns, not the actual wedding, which is why there are sometimes two entries, with slightly different dates, when the bride and groom attend different churches.

Actually, it's when the bride and groom lived in two different parishes, and the banns had to be proclaimed in both.

Banns had to be proclaimed in the parish kirk, so even if both of them attended other kirks of the same denomination in the same parish it made no difference - the banns still had to be called in the parish kirk.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Elaine,

Below is the tree of the other MacGregor family I mentioned before, the one which also lived at Coilantogle. It's based on my guesses about how the information in the Parish Registers fits together, so it may not be accurate, and I may have conflated different families.

I don't know how relevant this is to you, as I don't know how your Donald's family fits into this tree. The fact that Donald and the families below appear to have all been living together at Coilantogle for around a decade suggests they may have been related. However, Donald didn't use the Drummond alias, and his apparent age, (calculated from the date range of his children), doesn't fit as a brother, or as a son. Maybe he was a cousin.

I'm fairly sure Patrick Drummond was related to Alexander Drummond of Coilantogle. Patrick's family start out at Luirgeann, or Braeleny, which looks to be a remote place, at the head of a glen which runs north of Callander. Its remoteness suggests to me that Malcolm and Alexander are Patrick's brothers, and Alexander is the same person who lived at Coilantogle. The three apparent brothers all name their first son John, who may have been their father.

As I mentioned before, both Patrick's and Alexander's families married women who I'm confident are from the Glengyle branch of the MacGregor tree. Margaret McAlpine of Inverlochlaraigmore was most likely my ancestor's sister. Mary Drummond of Bailefuil's maternal great grandfather was most likely Rob Roy MacGregor. Coincidentally, I think she's also descended from two people you mentioned at the start of the thread; her paternal grandfather was probably Patrick Stirling, or Cotter, and her other maternal great grandfather was probably Iain Og McGregor of Glencarnoch. I don't know if that is a connection to your Donald. I also think Christian McComas could have been from the Glengyle family, and I suspect Margaret Graham and Janet Graham were too, as I think they were the only ones to use the Graham alias. Another source, (John Ward), says a granddaughter married another Glengyle, Gregor MacGregor of Alltan nam Breac. As I said before, the significance of all this is that the Glengyles often married their cousins. So, this hints that the tree below is a branch of the Glengyle tree.

John.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

|
|--Malcolm MacGregor alias Drummond of Lurgvean Callander
|  1719 Married Margaret MacGregor alias Graham of Buchanan Parish
|  |--1721 Catharine Lurgvean Callander
|  |--1723 John Lurgvuie Callander
|  |--1726 Duncan Lurgvuy Callander
|  |--1731 Alexander Callander
|  '--1734 Marrian Callander
|--Patrick MacGregor alias Drummond of Braelenny Callander
|  1728 Married Nansy/Agnes/Anne McArthur of Wester Brackland Callander
|  |--1729 Janet Brea of Leny Callander
|  |--1731 John Brackland Callander
|  |       John MacGregor alias Drummond of Callander
|  |       1755 Married Anne Wood of Port of Mentieth
|  |       Both buried Kincardine Norrieston graveyard: 115-Alexr MacGregor imo
|  |       w Janet 23.9.1798 33, fa John McGregor 11.12.1809 79, mo Ann Wood 11.4.1810 80
|  |       |--1756 Patrick Kirktown of Callander
|  |       |       John Ward says this is the husband of Margaret Strang of the
|  |       |       Milton of Aberfoyle/Drumlane Aberfoyle, and their daur
|  |       |       Margaret was the wife of Gregor, Margaret McAlpine's [below]
|  |       |       niece's [Joanna] son, but I don't know how accurate that is.
|  |       |--1757 Margaret Kirktown of Callander
|  |       |--1760 Anne Kirktown of Callander
|  |       |--1763 James Culintogle Callander
|  |       |--1764 James Cuilantogil Callander
|  |       |--1766 John Culintogle Callander
|  |       |       Most likely John of Callander who married Mary of Bailefuil, Balquhidder.
|  |       |       Mary most likely daur of Duncan alias Drummond and Catharine, b. 1763 Easter
|  |       |       Ruscachan, Balquhidder.
|  |       |       Blair Drummond Moss Census abt. 1814, Kirk Lane No 8;
|  |       |       Present Possessor Duncan McGregor 27 yrs
|  |       |                         Mary McGregor his mother 50
|  |       |       Children May his sister 23
|  |       |                Peter 11
|  |       |                Nancy 17
|  |       |                Gregor 15
|  |       |                Katherine 25
|  |       |       Persons deceased John 44yrs 1810 Consumption
|  |       |       Years Settled on the Moss 12 years
|  |       |       1783 John of Callander married Mary of Bailefuil
|  |       |       |--1783 Duncan Glenguile Callander
|  |       |       |--1785 Catherine Glenguile Callander
|  |       |       |--1787 Mary Breanchuilt Callander
|  |       |       |--1788 Peter Banchore Callander
|  |       |       |--1791 Anne Inverardoran Killin
|  |       |       |--1793 Anne Invrardoran Killin
|  |       |       '--1797 Gregor Inverardoran Killin
|  |       |--1769 Susanna Cuilintogle Callander
|  |       '--1772 Alexander Culntogil Callander
|  |               Erected monument to wife Janet 23.9.1798 33 and parents,
|  |               Kincardine Norrieston graveyard.
|  |--1733 Margaret Callander
|  |--1736 Donald Wester Brackland Callander
|  |--1738 James Lurgvuy Callander
|  |--1740 Janet Lurg Callander
|  |--1742 Patrick Cullintogle Callander
|  |--1745 Anne Kirktown of Callander
|  '--1748 Patrick Kirktown of Callander
'--Alexander MacGregor alias Drummond of Callander
   1731 Married Janet MacGregor alias Graham of Callander
   |--1732 Mary Lurgvuie Callander
   |--1734 John Braeleny Callander
   |       1774 Married Christian MacKomas of Callander. Most likely daur of John MacGregor
   |       |    alias McComas and Mary Miller b. 1749 Duncraggan Callander.
   |       |--1775 Janet Cullintogle Callander
   |       |--1779 Catharine Portnellan Callander
   |       '--1781 Alexander Portnellan Callander
   |--1736 Duncan Callander
   |--1739 Janet Lurg Callander
   1741 Married Christian Cameron of Callander
   |--1742 Grigor Cullintogle Callander
   |  1768 Married Margaret MacGregor alias McAlpine of Balquhidder
   |  |    Most likely daur of Duncan alias Murray and Margaret McLaren b. 1748 Easter
   |  |    Innernenty Balquhidder. Margaret and her siblings lived at Inverlochlaraigmore
   |  |    and appear to be the only people to use the McAlpine alias in the area. Her niece
   |  |    Joanna gave birth to Gregor 1783 at Tombea.
   |  |--1768 Patrick Coillbea Callander
   |  |--1772 Christian Culintogil Callander
   |  |--1773 John Cullintogle Callander
   |  |--1775 Robert Easter Tombea Callander
   |  |--1777 Alexander Tombea Callander
   |  |--1778 Catharine Tombea Callander
   |  |--1780 Robert Culintogle/Tombea Callander
   |  |--1781 Donald Tombea Callander
   |  |--1783 Janet Tombea Callander
   |  '--1789 Gregor/Jane Gregor Tombea Callander. Jane a mistake, or a common law wife?
   1745 Appears to have common law marriage with Christian McLeran
   |--1745 Archibald Cuilintogle Callander
   |--1748 Janet Cullintogle Callander
   |--1752 Christian Cullintogle Callander
   1755 Married Christian McLeran of Callander

[ElaineSK]

Hui John

Thanks for all this information, I am away to Inverness for 4 days as my son is getting married there on Saturday, in the McGregor tartan.  I will have a much better look at it all either during the 4 days or when I return home.
You asked earlier about Charles and him being born in Caputh, the 1861 census had this information on him, Myra had written in the Charles McGregor book that in his death certificate it had him born in Caputh but she had not been able to find his birth certificate, I couldn't either so maybe his birth certificate was an alias name?  Charles McGregor certainly travelled distances and he and his family lived in Cowford Cottage, this was owned by the Duke of Murray, Charles boss at Blair Atholl Castle.  More than likely his father John who was born in Cullintogle may have travelled too, Scots were hardy bunch and distances and hard terrain were no problem, especially to the Proscribed and hunted McGregors. John McGregor and Mary Young are a mystery, not a lot of details on them though they are mentioned on Charles McGregor's death certificate.   In the 1851 Census the details were more or less same, just 10 years younger at 63 and profession was - Farmerby Wood Forester

1861 Scotland Census
View Record
Name - Charles Macgregor
Age - 73 Estimated
Birth Year - abt 1788
Relationship - Head
Gender - Male
Where born - Caputh, Perthshire
Registration Number - 330Registration district - Auchtergaven Civil parish
AuchtergavenCounty - Perthshire
Address - Cowford Cottage
Occupation - Retired
Land Stewart
ED6
Household schedule number16
Line11RollCSSCT1861_47

Household Members
NameAge
Name
Charles Macgregor
Age
73
Name
Margaret Macgregor
Age
25
Name
Hellen Stewart
Age
10
Name
Mary I Willis
Age
4 Mo

[HarryFreeman]

Does anybody have any full paper trail or list of document that links Patrick Drummond to the McGregors or at least demonstrates and explains this?

He is my 7x ggfather.

There is a lot of misinformation about ancestry regarding my 4x ggfather  Duncan Drummond saying his father was Duncan McGregor, I never found any proof of this, having said that I have traced his lineage through Scotland people records and got up to Patrick Drummond and Ann McArthur and, having found this thread it does indeed look like the McGregor link is correct but people on ancestry have the link incorrect.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi,

Patrick calls himself McGregor in the Callander parish register, which is on Scotland's People. I must admit, I have mostly relied on the register transcript from Clan Gregor, which I have found to be very accurate. However, I do have a copy of this entry;

21/03/1731 PATRICK DRUMMOND/JANET MCARTHUR JOHN 336/10 65 Callander

Which says;

Patrick Drummond alias McGregor and Janet Mcarthur

I bought it to check it said Janet and not Nansy/Agnes/Anne. It does, but the location suggests it is the same couple.

This is the transcript from Clan Gregor;

1728 Patrick + Nansy McKertr [Braelenny/Wester Brackland] [Callander]
1729 Patrick/Agnis MckArthur Janet Brea of Leny Callander
1731 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor/Janet McArthur John Bracklain Callander
1736 Patrick Drummond/Agnes McArthur Donald Wester Brackland Callander
1738 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor /Anne McArthur James Lurgvuy Callander
1740 Patrick/Agnes McArthur Janet Lurg Callander
1742 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor /Anne McArthur Patrick Cullintogle Callander
1745 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor/Anne McArthur Anne Kirktown of Callander Callander
1748 Patrick Drummond alias McGregor/Anne McArthur Patrick Kirktown Callander

There is also this, which is on Scotland's People, but not in the transcript;

08/07/1733 PATRICK DRUMMOND/ANNA MCARTHUR MARGARET 336/10 72 Callander

I've not bought it, so I don't know if it's related or not.

So, this Patrick was a McGregor who used the alias Drummond, and he used both in the register. The only child I think I know about is John baptised 1731. I think this is his grave;

Kincardine Norrieston graveyard: 115-Alexr MacGregor imo w Janet 23.9.1798 33, fa John McGregor 11.12.1809 79, mo Ann Wood 11.4.1810 80

This John and Ann lived at Coilantogle, like Patrick, which may be a coincidence, but I think he was probably Patrick's son, given the location, the dates, and the names of John's children. I think most of his sons lived in New York state. Alexander, mentioned on their grave, was a banker in Liverpool and Manchester. There is a History of Saratoga County, 1878, which details the family, and links it to John and Ann Wood. The graves of the New York family are also on Find a Grave, and they are on the New York census. So, most of their sons are well documented, and I can post more details and links if you want. The exception is John and Ann Wood's son Patrick, who I think married Margaret Strang, lived in Aberfoyle, and had a son John who was a foxhunter. But this is my speculation, based on the parish registers, and is not as definitive proof as the contemporary history written about his brothers.

On the internet the parents of John, husband of Ann Wood, are given as;

15/02/1730 GEORGE DRUMMOND/MARGT. MCFARLANE JOHN Kincardine

This could be true, and I can post the whole of George's family, but as far as I can tell this family are true Drummonds, not McGregors. The only link appears to be the date, and the fact John sometimes used a Drummond alias. John and Ann Wood definitely lived at Coilantogle, but moved to Thornhill after 1772. The 1878 Saratoga history says they live in Thornhill, and they are buried there. I suspect this is why they have been linked to a Kincardine Drummond family by researchers, but I think the link to Patrick McGregor of Coilantogle is far more likely.

What does Ancestry say about this family, and do you want me to post more information about what I have?

John.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi,

I've noticed the tree above is from 2019, and was before I found the New York information which demonstrated I was wrong for the children of John and Ann Wood. So, my reply yesterday doesn't match the old tree. This is my correction;

|  |--1731 John Brackland Callander
|  |       John MacGregor alias Drummond of Callander
|  |       1755 Married Anne Wood of Port of Mentieth
|  |       Both buried Kincardine Norrieston graveyard: 115-Alexr MacGregor imo
|  |       w Janet 23.9.1798 33, fa John McGregor 11.12.1809 79, mo Ann Wood 11.4.1810 80
|  |       |--1756 Patrick Kirktown of Callander
|  |       |       John Ward says this is the husband of Margaret Strang of the
|  |       |       Milton of Aberfoyle/Drumlane Aberfoyle, and their daur
|  |       |       Margaret was the wife of Gregor, Margaret McAlpine's [below]
|  |       |       niece's [Joanna] son, but I don't know how accurate that is.
|  |       |--1757 Margaret Kirktown of Callander
|  |       |       Possibly went to US with her brothers, (below).
|  |       |       Margaret McCrieger Sprott (1757-1829) married William Sprott (1766-1844)
|  |       |       |--1788 James Sprott (d. 1850) married Anna (1799-1876)
|  |       |       |  This is most likely Mary Ann McGregor, daughter of James and Elisabeth
|  |       |       |  Louisa Cameron, (below), as their son James, and grandaughter Anna,
|  |       |       |  lived with James's son Duncan and are described as nephew and grandniece.
|  |       |       |  So, James Sprott and Anna were probably cousins.
|  |       |       |  |--1823 Jane E Sprott
|  |       |       |  |--1827 James N Sprott married Caroline
|  |       |       |  |  '--1861 Anna L Sprott
|  |       |       |  |--1829 George Sprott
|  |       |       |  '--1832 Charlotte Sprott
|  |       |       |--1793 Margaret Sprott Schuylerville, Saratoga (d. 1843)
|  |       |       |--1795 John Sprott Schuylerville, Saratoga
|  |       |       '--1797 Alexander Sprott Schuylerville, Saratoga
|  |       |--1760 Anne Kirktown of Callander
|  |       |--1763 James Culintogle Callander
|  |       |--1764 James Cuilantogil Callander
|  |       |--1760 Anne Kirktown of Callander
|  |       |--1761 William (not in OPR, d. 1834). Went to US 1781/2, 1787 settled in Wilton
|  |       |       married Charlotte Cameron (1773-1839)
|  |       |       |--1793 Charlotte Schuylerville, Saratoga
|  |       |       |--1795 Nancy Schuylerville, Saratoga
|  |       |       |--1797 John Schuylerville, Saratoga (d. 1879) married Charlotte
|  |       |       |       Beekman (1798-1874)
|  |       |       |       '--1842 Charles A McGregor (d. 1863)
|  |       |       |--1798 William Schuylerville, Saratoga (d. 1863) married Maria
|  |       |       |       Beekman (1802-1853)
|  |       |       |       '--1836 Beckman McGregor
|  |       |       |--James
|  |       |       |--1811 Alexander (d. 1849)
|  |       |       '--Elizabeth
|  |       |--1763 James Culintogle Callander