Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[Jomot]

The divorce file includes the 1867 marriage certificate.  Elizabeth Annie Marshall was 17 & the d/o John Marshall, Pilot.  Witness was Catherine Marshall.

The petition alleges the adultery started in 1881, so there is perhaps a question mark over Ethel's true parentage, but the only other person named was John Edwin Starling, who appears to have been born in Norfolk around 1853, and in 1881 was single, living in Westoe and a Marine Engineer.

[River Tyne Lass]

I am astounded at all the twists and turns in this thread .. what an intriguing story it all is ..

Regarding Vincent/Frank I suspect that the Frank of the KOSB who is shown in the photo (wounded and a prisoner and from North Shields) was Lily's husband.    I suspect Frank Vincent Spence of the Middlesex Regiment was Vincent.

However, why did he use Frank's name?  Or if I am wrong why was Frank claiming Vincent's relatives as his own siblings and parents?

Also there is the age of 21.  This would have been closer to Vincent's age than Frank's age.  When Frank married in 1903 he was recorded as 25 so in 1917 he would have been around 39.

I have checked the newspapers and I can't find any notices for either Vincent or Frank yet there are notices for John George.

Someone is missing - is it Vincent or Frank?  It just seems all a bit puzzling - I just can't figure what is going on or why.

And the Ethel mentioned - how does she figure into all of this? 

Over the past few days I have had people coming to me with various theories such as Vincent survived the war.  It has also been proposed by different people that FVS was either Frank or Vincent.  As I say, I think the latter.  Someone has also mentioned to me that there is no proof of Vincent having served in the war at all apart from the boards that are up at Linskill.  Presumably, his name is on there because his name would have been on the Tynemouth Roll  of Honour.  I have also heard a theory that Frank may have been estranged from Lily and that perhaps still being close to Georgina he out her down as his next of kin.  I think it does seem quite strange that he would claim the whole family as though he was Vincent.  I have also heard it suggested that Vincent may have been so grateful at having been taken out of the workhouse at one point he decided to start using Frank's name as his own.  I just think it is all quite mind boggling. 

Sorry for such a long winded post .. I just hope someone out there can figure this all out.

Yes, Battista who would have thought this post would  end up so long and still running.  Giovanni, Elizabeth Ann, non registered Baby John and now possibly either Vincent or Frank is missing!!   Also isn't it a bit bizarre that Elizabeth was recorded as transferred from Bolton Union but there are no records apparently to support this.

Still, a lot of information has been picked up along the way and this has brought your distant relatives into contact  - so all things to be grateful to Giovanni for.   

[Jomot]

I'm not at home at the moment so can't pull up the service record, but from memory the family information was completed after Frank Vincent's death and signed by a clergyman.

[Tickettyboo]

I can see the service record. The form was the one completed by the named next of kin so the army could issue the plaque and scroll to the family.
Georgina Birmingham completed and signed the form and a clergyman countersigned it to verify her and the info.

So the info comes from Georgina Birmingham (who was named as his sister and next of kin by the soldier), not the soldier himself. The form was signed and dated 17th June 1919.
The L Spence, aged 34 of 3 Norfolk St., North Shields was listed int he section for Full Blood sisters.

Boo

[Love&Leaves]

Thank you so much to all who are contributing on this... here are my thoughts....

Francis or Frank (Vincent?) Spence was Lily Battista's first husband and he died in the war.  Lily was close to her sister Georgina and I think the connection with Georgina as Franks sister is just she's his sister-in-law.  I have a record for Soldiers Died in the Great War 1914-1919 from Ancestry which says Frank was Duke of Cambridges Own regiment and notes his address as Wandsworth, London... this was Georgina and family's address.  Georgina was married to James Burmingham and they had five children.  I have started to find some records for the children - I really hope to trace this branch of the family sometime soon!! James was in the Navy, hence they moved down south.  I believe that James and Pasqualino would have know each other... as Pasqualino was also resident in Wandsworth at the time of his marriage to his first wife Elizabeth Macdonald and spent much time stationed in Greater London/Kent.

The E Moralee noted as a sibling has to be their sister Elizabeth Ann Battista... the one we have no trace of after leaving the workhouse in 1913.  Perhaps there is a marriage for Battista & Moralee between 1913 and 1917??

The connection with (Jane) Elizabeth Robson is a new and very interesting one... she was obviously a good friend of Lily's and it seems the guardian to John Georges illegitimate child!  John George & Lily were clearly close.   But yes Robson met a sticky end... there are lots of reports of violence for this crowd... not least this manslaughter as well as Lily herself brawling and even Lily being assaulted by her second husband Robert (Bob) Guthrie.

I also think the altercation between Frank Spence and William Sullivan is absolutely relevant - I believe that William Sullivan was the father of Lily's illegitimate son Willie (William John Battista) - I have a record somewhere which notes Willie as William Sullivan Battista which I need to find to corroborate this.....

The only thing I cannot get my head around is that the brother Vincent would take the name Frank Spence... I think they are definitely two different people.

I have Vincent (Crescenzo) Battista in 1911 in Chopwell Durham - he was taken from Tynemouth Workhouse to work as a miner there.  He would have been recruited I'm sure.. especially with the mining skills?  I have Lily as Lily Spence on the 1911 census and as married (not widowed)... it would great to find out where Frank Spence was in 1911... that might resolve the confusion.

[Tickettyboo]

Though  the evidence as to whether or not the service record for "Frank Spence" is, or is not Vincent is sketchy  there is still evidence that it could be.
The list of blood relatives gives pause for thought at least, his parents and full blood siblings are all consistent with Vincent's family, his age at attestation etc are all plus points for it being Vincent who had, for whatever reason, signed up with a fictitious name.

But as far as I can see, the jury is still out.

Georgina Birmingham was named, on the register of soldiers effects as n.o.k. and sole legatee
There is a will registered  for 'Frank Spence, service no 11713
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ner/
NB: soldiers wills, in my somewhat limited experience, vary from 'I leave everything to xx, signed Fred Bloggs',  to more detailed wills which can confirm what you want to know. Unfortunately the only way to find out which sort this one may be is to order a copy (at a cost of £10).

The photo RTL found for a Frank Spence, KOSB, who was wounded and a POW is looking (in my opinion) to be fairly unlikely to be the husband of Vincent's sister, Lily (Orsolina)

I can't see a surviving service record, or pension record for a man of this name and regiment.

There is a medal card for a Frank Spence, KSOB, service no 8619 which indicates he was discharged, Class Z 24.3.19

The POW records (mainly lists with not much info other than name and regiment) show a Francis Spence of KSOB, who was born Wallsend, POW in Germny
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/607737/698/4272/

and there is a pension record card on Fold3 for a Francis Spence, KSOB service no 8619, discharged 25.3.1919 ( a day out, but who's counting!), living at 76 Sep** St. ,Newcastle - that address is not clear (to me) but can be seen here if anyone has a suggestion, to help check the absent voters registers:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ciskcbatg3xtcu3/address.jpg?dl=0

Says he was born in 1877, was married and had suffered a gunshot wound to his left arm. It states the final pension award was in 1922.

As Orsolina /Lily remarried in 1918, to Robert Guthrie, she either re-married bigamously OR the above Francis Spence was not her husband - I am trying to keep an open mind as anything seems to be possible with this family :-)

Not sure if that is helpful or not :-) This family presents multitudinous problems but, if they were mine, I'd keep everything in the possibles box until and unless I had found some concrete evidence one way or another.


Boo

[River Tyne Lass]

I am not going to get a long time to post as I am en route to nightshift.

I find it very puzzling that Frank's details 're his family present as though they are Vincent's.  When Francis married Orsolina in 1905 he was 25.  This Frank 12 years later is down as only 21.

My posts on Lily's two marriages giving all entry details are on pages 10 and 12 on here.  I know this is getting to be a very long post indeed.

're Lily's son I agree that his Father is likely to have been William Sullivan.  I found a Holy Trinity marriage for him a good while back and his Father was recorded as John William Sullivan Battista - Seaman.  I can't remember exactly but I did find something else back then which suggested to me that William may have been a married man.

Thanks Boo, I will be able to look at your post better tomorrow on way home with all the details .. now I am just trying to keep one eye out the window so I don't miss my stop.

[Jomot]

and there is a pension record card on Fold3 for a Francis Spence, KSOB service no 8619, discharged 25.3.1919 ( a day out, but who's counting!), living at 76 Sep** St. ,Newcastle - that address is not clear (to me) but can be seen here if anyone has a suggestion, to help check the absent voters registers:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ciskcbatg3xtcu3/address.jpg?dl=0

I think this says Septre Street, which is possibly meant to be Sceptre Street.

[Tickettyboo]

Thanks Jomot, Sceptre St is right.

1918 Absent Voters list 76 Sceptre St, Elswick has
Spence,  Francis  KSOB service no 3619 (rather than the 8619 on the pension index card, but that's possibly misread/ transcribed from the form ) who is listed as a Prisoner in Germany.

He and his wife, Ann, were listed on the electoral registers at that address from 1920 onwards and are still at that address in 1939 on the National ID Register (by which time he is recorded as Francis E) and the last time I can see him on the electoral register at that address is 1958

So I'd say that discounts the KSOB man in the Illustrated Chronicle photo as the husband of Lily

Boo