Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Oh well, we can rule that man out then.

I see on Francis' marriage entry to Orsolina (Lily) his Father is named as Francis - Master (Mariner?).  There was a Francis Spence who died 28 November 1912 who had been married to an Elizabeth Granger at St Paul, Cullercoats (better known now as in Whitley Bay.  This man was a mariner and is buried at Preston Cemetery in plot number 11434.  A Francis Spence was birth registered in the Tynemouth in the December quarter 1874 mmn Grainger.  I wonder if this one might be the one who married Lily?  If so he would have been 31 and not 25 when they married.  He might have wanted to close the age gap, I suppose.

It is a shame that at that time they weren't recording by section area.  If Francis Spence (Snr) had a grave stone there may have been a later 'in memoriam'  added for possible son Frank after he got killed in the war. 

Sophie, I think the Robson women are two different people.  The one who was Lily's friend (Jane Elizabeth Robson) and whose inquest Lily attended as a witness, died in 1906.  The story was in the Shields Daily News on 8 November 1906.

The Elizabeth who seems to have become guardian of John George's child must have been around after the war to be awarded a pension.

I have been trying to find how Elizabeth became 'Moralee'.

Assuming she is the Elizabeth who was discharged from the workhouse in 1913 and that she really was unmarried at that point - there were 3 Moralees who married an Elizabeth.  Might she have had a previous marriage before becoming a Moralee, I wonder?

There was a John Moralee who married an Elizabeth Hewitt in September quarter 1916 Tynemouth - W114 .. This code indicates a non- Anglican venue.  Might they have married at a registry office or perhaps a RC Church such as St Cuthbert's, North Shields?  This is likely not Elizabeth as she seems to have had a child with mmn Hewitt.

In September quarter 1917 two John T Moralees each married respectively an Elizabeth Patterson and an Elizabeth Jennings. 

It is a puzzle though as I can't find a marriage for an Elizabeth Battista to start with.

Curiously, regarding the mention of earlier  Marshalls - there is an article for a James Battista when he seems to have been in the in Reading area staying in a lodging house.  He used a false identity as George Marshall and another name and when he was caught out by police he said he had been using his Mother's name. 

(Berks & Oxon Advertiser - 16 November 1928)

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Sophie,

On page 22 post 197 you have commented that you have not come across another marriage for James Battista after his marriage to Dorothy Playford.  I think I have found evidence of an attempted one:

Northern Daily Mail - Wednesday, 20 October 1937

'DIDN'T KNOW WIFE WAS ALIVE
Newcastle Man Acquitted on Bigamy Charge
James Battista, 41-year old labourer, of Westmorland Road, Newcastle-on Tyne, who went through a form of marriage with a 17-year old girl while his wife was alive was found not guilty of bigamy at Newcastle yesterday.
Mr Justice Atkinson, instructing the jury to return a "Not guilty" verdict said there was no evidence to show that Battista knew his wife was living when he "married" for the second time.
Battista said he had been told in 1927 that his wife was dead but had not made any further enquiries.'

[Tickettyboo]

Good find RTL,
Sophie, that article is in the online newspapers (BNA and FindMyPast) as Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail 20 Oct 1937, page 6, bottom of col 5

Boo

[River Tyne Lass]

Sophie, this is the marriage entry I believe for Lily's illegitimate son.  Perhaps you might like to have this to add to your many records:

Holy Trinity, North Shields
Entry 50
John William Battista & Ann Elizabeth Bridges
His age 33
Her age 27
Widower & Spinster
Seaman
His residence: 21 Spencer Street
Her residence: 19 Lower Rudyerd Street
Fathers:
John William Sullivan Battista - Seaman
(?) Bridges - Labourer
Witnesses: William (?) (Emery?)
Minnie Menuna Mudd
All signed
By Banns

[River Tyne Lass]

Shields Daily News - Wednesday 7 November 1906

'SEEKING ANOTHER MAN'S WIFE
At North Shields Police Court today, William Sullivan, a young man residing at 6 Herron Street, South Shields, was summoned for using threatening language towards a miner named Francis Spence, who lives at 23 Church Street.- Complainant stated that on the 1st inst., the defendant and another man came to his house and demanded to see "Lily," who was his (complainant's) wife.  They left, and when they got downstairs the defendant attempted to strike him, and said he would "swing for him."  - A nephew of the complainant said he heard the defendant threaten his uncle.  He told him that so long as he lived with his (complainant's) wife he would follow them.  Defendant denied the charge, and told the magistrates that the reason he went to the house was to ask the reason why Mrs Spence, who had lived with him had left him.- Mrs Spence was called, and said she lived with the defendant because of her husband's ill-usage.  She denied that the defendant threatened her husband. - The magistrates bound him over in his own recognaisances of £5 to keep the peace for 6 months.'

Shields Daily News - Wednesday, 12 July 1905

'Assaults
William Sullivan, who made his 11th appearance was summoned for having assaulted Francis Spence and was fined 20s and costs.'

Sophie, I am of the opinion still that Vincent Battista assumed the alias of 'Frank Spence' and was named by his (Vincent's) sister Georgina on his war grave as 'Frank Vincent Spence'.  It is my belief that something may have happened to the real Francis Spence who was the husband of Lily. 

[River Tyne Lass]

The next time I can get to the archives I will re-check the signature of Francis on marriage to Orsolina (Lily) and compare to the signature made by Frank on his enrolment as Great War soldier.

[Love&Leaves]

WOW 

Firstly I am struggling to process all this!!!  It's amazing what is being found and the mysteries surrounding this branch of the Battista's 

Secondly I have to admit that for some reason I completely missed Frank Spences service record and the fact he has listed Giovanni and Elizabeth as his parents!!!!!!     I now see the massive question mark over this mans identity.  Brilliant idea about checking the signatures RTL x

Thanks so much RTL, Boo and Jomot for all the info... it surely can't be long before this starts to make sense.  I am going through all my info on my ancestry tree to see if any old info might now fit into place.

Regarding the William Sullivan being Lily's son's father - RTL.. the marriage certificate was absolutely the record I was thinking of to prove that.  These new newspaper articles re the issues between Sulivan/Spence/Lily are amazing and are adding such flesh to the bones of this!!!

[Love&Leaves]

Oh and I've had to order Frank Spences Will!!  As well as John Georges!  Says it could take up top 10 days for them to become available... lets hope they have some new info 

[Love&Leaves]

Also RTL re the latest article about Sullivan/Spence it notes Spence as being a MINER... which we know Vincent Battista was from his discharge from the Workhouse and also the 1911 census......