Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

The Minutes held at North Shields local studies are in typed up volumes running from 1911 to 1930.
I believe there are much earlier Minutes held at the Archives.  Perhaps one day something more might be found in these relating to the Battista family.  I think there is still hope yet.  We mustn't give up.

Yes, I suspect there was no love lost between James and the Master.

[River Tyne Lass]

An update on the Battista story from archives today:

Tynemouth Workhouse Minutes -  23 December 1902 (Page 392):

'Resolved that authorities under the seal of the Board be given for legal proceedings by W (?) in the following cases viz:-
.. Against John Battista for neglecting to maintain his six children and for running away whereby they became chargeable in the workhouse.'

Tynemouth Workhouse Minutes - 5th March 1903 (Page 431)

'In the matter of five (sic) children deserted by their father, John Battista, an Italian who is now supposed to be  residing in Italy, the clerk was instructed to communicate with W (M?) Italian Vice-Consul at Newcastle on Tyne with a view to the Children being handed over to their father.'

I think they didn't sound very convinced Giovanni was in Italy.

Also, re Elizabeth Battista, it appears there was a double wedding along with her Father in law at St Andrew RC Church, Newcastle on 20 October.
(My earlier mistake in thinking the FamilySearch catalogue number related to St Dominic.)
Witnesses for both marriages were:
Henrico Hastings - 20 Pilgrim Street and
Maria (Zaneth?) - 38 Side.  And both brides and grooms from 2 Robin Hood Yard

There were notes in Latin in both entries.
In Elizabeth's entry there was this which I think might relate to births or baptisms?
1) Nat 25.12.1888
2) Nat 24.11.1888
Also a reference to what I think is their civil marriage?
'Mar civ  Newcastle . .. 4 (Sept?) 1917'
But is this the date you have on cert Sophie?  It really looks like Sept.
On Father in laws entry it his Father is recorded as Andrew Moralee and he was the widower of Margarita Moralee
Elizabeth Jennings' Father was Robert Booth
and she was widow of Patri Jennings
It looks like this Elizabeth was baptised at St Robert, Morpeth and dates are given
1) nat 23.9.1880
2) nat 12.8.1852
Their civil marriage date also seems to be recorded 7 Aug 1917 Newcastle

Plus more found relating to James Battista:

Feb 27th 1922 9.00 am James discharged (RC religion)

April 11th 1922  9.30 am Dorothy & John George Playford discharged.  Ages 24 & 2 and both EC religion

Oct 9th 1922 6.50 pm admitted:
James Battista  Seaman RC age 23
Two addresses given Clive Street, N/S & 11 Front Street
Nearest relative 'Brother Wm HMS (Thundon?/Thundern,) Portsmouth'
(This was ditto for Dorothy & Son John)
Dorothy Battista age 24 EC wife of James
Milburn Place N/S
John George Playford Boy age 2 ditto for Dorothy's address

Oct 23rd 1922 10.00  discharge:
Dorothy Battista & John George Playford
Remarks on Dorothy's entry 'To Mrs McFarlane 11 Middle Street, North Shields
Remarks on John's entry 'With Mother as above'.

Note in the Medical Officer's examination book both James and Dorothy were both recorded 'fit' for work.  Lucky as most people seemed to be recorded with an ailment or illness/condition.

[Love&Leaves]

Just AMAZING RTL!  . Thank you so much for the effort of getting to the archives , especially through all the red tape and in this treacherous weather!

This is a brilliant breakthrough re Giovanni!  I'm going to see if I can find any newspaper articles or if there are any court records available.  My hope is that the board of guardians confirmed whether Giovanni did indeed return to Italy.  I am also intrigued as to what they meant by 'handing the children over to their father'.. would they have sent the children to Italy??  I agree with RTL, they clearly didn't believe he was in Italy.

FYI, they changed the number of children from six to five as daughter Elizabeth turned 16 in Oct 1902.

[Love&Leaves]

Regarding Elizabeth.. yes RTL 4 Sept 1917 is date on the certificate.  Can't get anymore definitive than this.  So definitely the Patterson alias and the Robins Hood Yard Moralee's 

[battista]

Wow, fantastic work as always RTL! Yes, thank you so much for going to the archives. Above and beyond, never would I have imagined all the amazing folk here uncovering so much about our family. And how many distant family members have found this thread and come into contact with us, this the thread that keeps on giving.

What a journey, 4 1/2 years later. Thank you to everyone who has lent their time and effort, I am forever grateful.

I'm fairly poor using the Italian records site Antenati, quick search yielded nothing of value unfortunately. Was hoping maybe more records had been indexed. I recall going through the death records for his hometown of Cassino, trying to find his name in all the pages. Trouble is, he might not have died there, could've been many other places in Italy. Or, like the workhouse suspects, maybe a lot closer to home.

[River Tyne Lass]

You are welcome Sophie and Battista. 
I will try to return to the archives again at some point in the New Year fitting in with my shifts and will look at more ‘Minutes’ hopefully to try to find whatever response there may have been from the Italian Consulate.  Albeit we know already, the hope that the children would be handed back to their Father fell through.
It feels like more questions raised now in following this story.  Things to cogitate on.
Such as I wonder how legal proceedings would be carried out against someone they couldn’t find.  Also, I wonder what clout an Italian Consulate would have in locating a missing Italian person.  I know nothing about the law and the powers of a Consulate.  It would be interesting to know more.
Also, presumably Elizabeth may have been required to show her civil marriage cert to the priest and he would not have just taken her word on this – or would he?  If so, I do wonder how she might have explained her use of an alias?
Also, just to add that I came across something yesterday that I had not been expecting to find.  My Great Grandmother’s second husband was also in the workhouse at that time and had bronchitis and sadly I know that he was on his way out at that point and was later buried at St John Annitsford.  They lived in Dudley but I daresay the workhouse would have supported quite a wide area.  In the entry his wife (my ancestor) is mistakenly recorded as Mary Ann but her real name was actually Eliza Ann.  It does make you think that mistakes would have been possible and going back to the ‘W. Brabant’ who took Elizabeth out I daresay it might have been possible that someone just recorded the initial incorrectly.  Just a thought.
I do wonder where Brabant took her out too and for what purpose.  Hopefully, the 'Minutes' might reveal a bit more in 2023.
Wishing you all a Merry Christmas and Thanks to all who have helped contributed so far. 

[River Tyne Lass]

Just to update, I looked further in the Minutes yesterday but up to 13 Feb 1908 I found no more references to Giovanni/John or any more re any response from the Italian Consul.
However, the writing in the entries is not the easiest on the eye I find so I may have inadvertently missed something.  That might be a possibility.
What I did find was a further reference to 'W. Brabant' in Minutes of14th September 1905 on page 485.  This concerned 'approving payment' of 'gratuity of £3 to W. Brabant, Girls' Industrial Trainer'

[River Tyne Lass]

Just a further update .. I was able to find something else yesterday that I had missed last time.  I think last time I had been rushing too much and had tried to cover too much at once.  The workhouse Minutes volumes are huge and the writing is difficult, at least on my brain.  I won’t give up my day job.

This is the reference and what I found:
Ref: PU.TY/1/1/24 Tynemouth Workhouse Minutes – 21 March 1901 – 11 June 1903
Page 440 Minutes dated 19 March 1903:
‘Read letter, dated 12 instant, from Mr (A V Montaldi?) Italian Vice Consul at Newcastle on  Tyne, acknowledging receipt of the boards letter, with reference to the children of Giovanni Battista, inmates of the workhouse, and stating that he had forwarded the letter to his superior office in Liverpool.’

[River Tyne Lass]

I am wondering if this person - Michael Whelan may be a possible for Giovanni using this alias.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VC-K9QK-1?cat=828268

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/272320844/michael-whelan

I have found a St Andrew & Jesmond cemetery burial record 17 March 1904.  However, can't see a death registration for this quarter.
However, there may be an earlier death registration in the December quarter 1903 Volume 10b page 92.

But why the late burial if these are the same person?  Might he have gone to medical science or might there be some other reason?

When wife Anastasia died she was recorded as wife of Michael Whelan (who had been her first husband).
So just for the record I am wondering if this may be him?