Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[battista]

'Giovanni Battista ex North Shields son of Antoni Battista & Anastasiam Whalen ex Willington Quay daughter of Timothei Finley.'

Wait a second. This is information I have been searching for! I specifically ordered Giovanni and Elizabeth's marriage certificate to find out the father of Giovanni to try and get a birth certificate from Italy, and you've just written it right here Now I have Anastasia's father too, which I forgot I wanted.

There was someone on ancestry who listed Giovanni's father as Antonio, they have a lot of information on their ancestry tree, but no sources. This bit of information here supports that their tree is at least partially, accurate. I've contacted this person, but so far, no response. This is very exciting news!

[Jomot]

Going back over the original information, two children (at least) had been admitted to the Tynemouth Workhouse.  In 1909 William was then sent on to the Industrial School at Hull, but James remained in Tynemouth.  Might any remaining records there provide any further information?

[battista]

Going back over the original information, two children (at least) had been admitted to the Tynemouth Workhouse.  In 1909 William was then sent on to the Industrial School at Hull, but James remained in Tynemouth.  Might any remaining records there provide any further information?

Hmm, what sort of information would be at the workhouse or industrial ship? I'm not sure what records they kept.

'Giovanni Battista ex North Shields son of Antoni Battista & Anastasiam Whalen ex Willington Quay daughter of Timothei Finley.'

Wait a second. This is information I have been searching for! I specifically ordered Giovanni and Elizabeth's marriage certificate to find out the father of Giovanni to try and get a birth certificate from Italy, and you've just written it right here Now I have Anastasia's father too, which I forgot I wanted.

There was someone on ancestry who listed Giovanni's father as Antonio, they have a lot of information on their ancestry tree, but no sources. This bit of information here supports that their tree is at least partially, accurate. I've contacted this person, but so far, no response. This is very exciting news!

Now to wait for the 1885 marriage to Elizabeth. Find out who her father is so I can track down her birth certificate as well. Hopefully all the GRO certs I ordered don't get lost in the mail when travelling to the other side of the world...

This brick wall for Giovanni's death might still be unfaultering, but at least my own records have expanded in other areas thanks to all of everyone's help here

[JenB]

Going back over the original information, two children (at least) had been admitted to the Tynemouth Workhouse.  In 1909 William was then sent on to the Industrial School at Hull, but James remained in Tynemouth.  Might any remaining records there provide any further information?

Hmm, what sort of information would be at the workhouse or industrial ship? I'm not sure what records they kept.

I can’t do links at the moment, but check on Tyne & Wear Archives User Guides, Then select paupers records.

You will see on there the list of items available at the Archives for Tynemouth Poor Law Union.
These include some admission and discharge registers which could well hold interesting information.

[River Tyne Lass]

This is wonderful to hear that the marriage information has been helpful.

Unfortunately, I missed seeing the above posts and I have been at Tyne and Wear Archives today.   I am on a run of nightshifts starting tomorrow night.

Never mind, in a week or two I should be able to return and I will check workhouse records to see if there is more information.  Sometimes these records show who accompanied them when they were signed  in and where they came from, etc.  My own Great Grandfather had a sister who was signed in to the work house hospital part after she was attacked by a man and seriously injured.  The records show that her daughter signed her in and her daughter's address is given and the fact that this ancestor who was signed in was a widow, also who her husband was and his occupation and that she kept her own clothes rather than work house ones.  The records also record that she was taken out by a policeman (for the court case).  Records will also record of innate died.  So these workhouse records can show information of interest.

The archives are going to be closed for some of June as apparently the Blue Peter time capsule and the 'Rocket' of George Stephenson fame is coming to the museum - so we will all have to check their website before visiting to make sure of opening.

I just have to break off for a bit but will be posting on here again soon about some other discoveries today.

[River Tyne Lass]

Some more finds today ..

Antonio Battista burial at Elswick Cemetery
Entry No: 74798
Residence: 103 Blandford House
Parish: St John
Where death occurred: General Hospital
Section S  grave 148

Evening Chronicle - Wednesday January 22, 1936
'BATTISTA. - 103 Blandford Street 20th inst., aged 81 years, Antonio, beloved husband of Christina Battista, of
Trafalgar Street.  Interment Elswick Cemetery.  Friday leaving residence 2.15 p.m.  All friends and neighbour kindly invited R.I.P. 

I wonder if this Christina remarried 1938?

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Battista,

These people may have nothing to do with your ancestors but I will tell you about this just in case you may find that these are in your family tree.

At Tyne and Wear Archives there is a massive book full of criminal mugshots from the early 1900s in North Tyneside.  (I bought a copy of a photo of one of my own ancestors from this book a couple of years ago.)

In this book the mugshots are very good clear photos.
There are two photos taken on separate occasions of John G. Battista - 9.6.1913 and 20.1.1910. Someone has written large writing 'DEAD' next to each entry.  Perhaps this may have been written shortly after his death in WW1? I believe each photo is of the same man.

There is also a photo of a 'Lily Spence alias Battista' - she looks very glum but is photoed wearing a very lovely hat!  Date under photo is 22.3.1912. (I think there is a possibility she may be the Lily who was mentioned in the WW1 death notice of John G Battista and referred to as his sister.)

There is also a photo of a 'John Whalen' - dated 4.2.1909.  He may or may not be any connection to Anastasia.  I expect the Shields Daily News will have printed about whatever crimes they will have been found guilty of.

Keep researching - you never know when that lucky break may be around the corner! The secret of what happened to Giovanni may still be discovered one day:)

[JenB]

I can’t do links at the moment, but check on Tyne & Wear Archives User Guides, Then select paupers records.

https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/user-guides-and-information

Details of the Paupers Records held by T & W Archives are in the section marked Other Topics.

As RTL said, there is often useful information to be found in the Workhouse Papers.

[battista]

This is wonderful to hear that the marriage information has been helpful.

Unfortunately, I missed seeing the above posts and I have been at Tyne and Wear Archives today. I am on a run of nightshifts starting tomorrow night.

Never mind, in a week or two I should be able to return and I will check workhouse records to see if there is more information. Sometimes these records show who accompanied them when they were signed in and where they came from, etc. My own Great Grandfather had a sister who was signed in to the work house hospital part after she was attacked by a man and seriously injured. The records show that her daughter signed her in and her daughter's address is given and the fact that this ancestor who was signed in was a widow, also who her husband was and his occupation and that she kept her own clothes rather than work house ones. The records also record that she was taken out by a policeman (for the court case). Records will also record of innate died. So these workhouse records can show information of interest.

The archives are going to be closed for some of June as apparently the Blue Peter time capsule and the 'Rocket' of George Stephenson fame is coming to the museum - so we will all have to check their website before visiting to make sure of opening.

I just have to break off for a bit but will be posting on here again soon about some other discoveries today.

Thank you so much

Hi Battista,

These people may have nothing to do with your ancestors but I will tell you about this just in case you may find that these are in your family tree.

At Tyne and Wear Archives there is a massive book full of criminal mugshots from the early 1900s in North Tyneside. (I bought a copy of a photo of one of my own ancestors from this book a couple of years ago.)

In this book the mugshots are very good clear photos.
There are two photos taken on separate occasions of John G. Battista - 9.6.1913 and 20.1.1910. Someone has written large writing 'DEAD' next to each entry. Perhaps this may have been written shortly after his death in WW1? I believe each photo is of the same man.

There is also a photo of a 'Lily Spence alias Battista' - she looks very glum but is photoed wearing a very lovely hat! Date under photo is 22.3.1912. (I think there is a possibility she may be the Lily who was mentioned in the WW1 death notice of John G Battista and referred to as his sister.)

There is also a photo of a 'John Whalen' - dated 4.2.1909. He may or may not be any connection to Anastasia. I expect the Shields Daily News will have printed about whatever crimes they will have been found guilty of.

Keep researching - you never know when that lucky break may be around the corner! The secret of what happened to Giovanni may still be discovered one day:)

This is also very exciting news, both John G Battista and Lilly Spence are children of Giovanni. I know Orselina went by the name Lily, and she married Francis Spence in 1905.

These are both in my family tree. How could I get copies of these photos? I wonder if there's a photo of Giovanni out there.

John Whalen, not sure about him, don't have any information on him.

I'll definitely keep looking for Giovanni's death, one of these days I'm sure I'll find it. Elswick Cemetery seems promising, lots of Battistas in there.