Author Topic: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]  (Read 75991 times)

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #180 on: Friday 05 October 18 16:15 BST (UK) »
Hi Jen - apologies, there is so much information and I am forgetting what has indeed already been posted.  Thanks for all your input and clarification.  Perhaps something will be made accessible in the future re the workhouses/industrial ship.

RTL - thanks for your continued support.. I've got my thinking cap back on about other possible leads :). I have visited Stowell Street, which is still quite original in places isn't it?  We ate in a restaurant more or less at no.15.  Vincenzo's wife Mary Jane was born and bred in Stowell Street, as were all of their children including my Gt Gf.
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #181 on: Friday 05 October 18 16:37 BST (UK) »
I have looked again at the book which has the letter about relating the death of  'Private Battista ' (John George) who died on November 6th.  It was written by another 'Private' who had received the Military Medal.

W. A.  Battista is also referenced on page 42 in the long lists of boys who had served in particular vessels.  Apparently, this ancestor of yours served in HMS Russell which it seems was later sunk.

Here is a link about this ship, I believe.

http://www.the-weatherings.co.uk/pccship0124.htm

Plus here is a link for a message board for those who may wish to ask questions.

https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/battleships/hms_russell_message_board.htm

I must say, this book by Brian Godfrey is an excellent source of information about the Wellesley - definitely a go to book for anyone who has ancestors with Wellesley connections.  Loads of great photos too.

This is the publisher of anyone wants the book.  It may also be available at some libraries.

https://www.summerhillbooks.co.uk

Click on North Tyneside on the website and scroll down.

That is great that you managed to visit Stowell Street once Sophie and more or less eat out at the place where your ancestors once lived. :)
Conroy, Fitzpatrick, Watson, Miller, Davis/Davies, Brown, Senior, Dodds, Grieveson, Gamesby, Simpson, Rose, Gilboy, Malloy, Dalton, Young, Saint, Anderson, Allen, McKetterick, McCabe, Drummond, Parkinson, Armstrong, McCarroll, Innes, Marshall, Atkinson, Glendinning, Fenwick, Bonner

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #182 on: Friday 05 October 18 17:17 BST (UK) »
Interesting about William.. he survived the war and went on to marry and have a family.  So did James I believe.  I'm going to keep on trawling through the info I have on these children.. there has to be another cousin somewhere who could shed some light  ???
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #183 on: Friday 05 October 18 21:21 BST (UK) »
Yes, according to the book William left the ship in 1913 - fortunately a few years prior to this being sunk.

I think that would be an excellent idea to try to find some 'cousin's who may know more.

When I once had a brick wall similar to this it was one of those long lost cousins who I did not know and who did not know me who was eventually the means of bricking that brick wall down. :D

Surely some 'cousin' may know something regarding Giovanni.
Conroy, Fitzpatrick, Watson, Miller, Davis/Davies, Brown, Senior, Dodds, Grieveson, Gamesby, Simpson, Rose, Gilboy, Malloy, Dalton, Young, Saint, Anderson, Allen, McKetterick, McCabe, Drummond, Parkinson, Armstrong, McCarroll, Innes, Marshall, Atkinson, Glendinning, Fenwick, Bonner


Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #184 on: Saturday 06 October 18 20:17 BST (UK) »

Also as a note, I have read over the marriage record for Giovanna and Anastasia for yesterday and it should read that one of the witnesses was William Bell.  Sorry, I got distracted by trying to get the RC spelling right I accidentally missed off his surname.  The other was 'Maria Joanna Battista'.

Good evening to all following!  I have some time on my hands and have gone right back through the entire thread to get my facts straight ;D (RTL I have just seen all of the wonderful details relating to Giovanni's children's admission/discharge from the workhouse!  :-[ ) and to work out what is outstanding that could be useful.

First a point regarding the above... Maria Joanna Battista is Mary Jane Battista, Vincenzo's wife (and my 2xGt Grandmother) and William Bell is Mary Janes son-in-law, husband to her eldest daughter Marianna Battista.

This is interesting that they witnessed this, Giovanni's second marriage in 1901.  Also, Anastasia's address on the 1903 Electoral Roll is Stowell Street - where Vincenzo and Mary Jane and families lived for most if not all of their lives.  Vincenzo died in 1900, so it means that Giovanni must have been close to his brother/brothers family don't you think?

Also, I have realised that Anastasia was pregnant with Henry Leo (born Sep 1901) when she married Giovanni (Feb 1901).

Henry Leo died in July 1902 - I have ordered his death certificate for the address and any other useful info.  As previously suggested this may mention Giovanni.

Plus, I have grave references for Vincenzo, his and Giovanni's other brother Antonio as well as Henry Leo.  All buried at Elswick.  I am hoping to enlist the help of someone who can go to check for stones for me.  Hoping RTL will be correct and Giovanni could be referenced on one.

Finally, I have ordered the Wellesley book and have been scouring all of the links re this and the WW1 commemorations with much interest.  I feel quite sad to think how hard their lives appear to have been.  I also note that there doesn't appear to be much mentioned about Vincents death in WW1.. especially given he died just a month or so before John George  ??? I am so hoping to come across some other Battista descendants who can shine more positive light on the families progress in life.

Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #185 on: Saturday 06 October 18 20:19 BST (UK) »
One more thing.. Anastasia on 1903 electoral roll is noted with 3 successive properties... I understand that she would have been the rate payer to be eligible... I wonder what this suggests about her financial status... I need to understand more about the electoral roll I think.
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #186 on: Sunday 07 October 18 11:19 BST (UK) »
Yes, I agree it does sound like Giovanni was close to his brothers family.  If only there is a grave stone out there which might have some more clues recorded on it.

That is interesting what you mention about Anastasia and the properties.  I don't know what that may suggest about the her financial status either.  I know from the research I did that she is buried in the same grave as her daughter which might mean it was a private grave.  I think if it was a private grave the family would have the right to erect a grave stone.  If so, I wonder if there may be anything inscribed relating to Giovanni or whether they may only mention their own Father - Michael Whelan.

I have an ancestor who married three men but only the middle one is referenced on her grave at Church Bank Cemetery at Wallsend.

I have noticed that Vincent doesn't appear to be mentioned as much as John George in the Great War.  Perhaps This might be because after he left the workhouse he went to live in a different area (albeit he came back) and John George who stayed in North Shields may have been seen as more of a local man. 

I do hope you do get to come across some other descendants who may be able to help.  Maybe one day one such person will see this thread and come forward.

I also hope you enjoy the book when it arrives.  I have no ancestors who were on the Wellesley but I must say, I do find this book a fascinating read any way.  There seems to have been a close fraternity between the boys and they could be set up for life by learning new skills for a trade even if they did not plan on going to sea.

Conroy, Fitzpatrick, Watson, Miller, Davis/Davies, Brown, Senior, Dodds, Grieveson, Gamesby, Simpson, Rose, Gilboy, Malloy, Dalton, Young, Saint, Anderson, Allen, McKetterick, McCabe, Drummond, Parkinson, Armstrong, McCarroll, Innes, Marshall, Atkinson, Glendinning, Fenwick, Bonner

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #187 on: Saturday 13 October 18 14:33 BST (UK) »
Hello again everyone,

I have an update.. having been recovering from some surgery so I've had some time on my hands to go back through my research and I have started to build up a bit of a picture of what was happening in Giovanni's life leading up to his last known address at Turpins Bank in 1902.

I ordered and received the death certificate of Henry Leo, Giovanni's youngest and only son by Anastasia.  He died on July 14th 1902 at 2 Stowell Square of convulsions/measles and the informant on his certificate was his father Giovanni, present at death.  Very interesting to note that this date was just 3 days before Lily Battista was admitted to Tynemouth workhouse, citing her fathers address as Turpin Bank.  It was also just 3 months before the rest of Giovanni's younger children were admitted to Tynemouth Workhouse on 17 Nov 1902.

Giovanni definitely had an awful few years...
His brother Vincenzo died January 1900 (followed shortly by Vincenzo's baby son Nicola in April).
His first wife (and mother of 8 children) Elizabeth died in September 1900.
He then marries Anastasia 5 months later in Feb 1901, who is already 3 months pregnant with Henry Leo.   
They are all living together in April 1901 at 9 Bird Street - including Lily who is 17 and Elizabeth 15.
Henry Leo is born in Sep 1901, the family now have a new baby to cope with.
Lily is admitted to Tynemouth Workhouse in Nov 1901 for 20 days and then again on Dec 28th 1901 where she states her father has gone to Newcastle, address unknown (discharge unknown).
Henry Leo dies in July 1902 aged just 10 months at 2 Stowell Street, Giovanni is present.
Giovanni's 7 youngest children are admitted to Tynemouth workhouse in November 1902.

RTL - I can't remember whether you found a baptism record for Henry Leo?  It would be interesting to note an address or his godparents then.. I have the reference on Ancestry but it doesn't give these details in the transcription.

I also obtained two more marriage certificates hoping to glean more conclusive info on Giovanni's death, but they have only deepened the mystery  :o

I believe his eldest son Pasqaulino married a woman called Marieta Di Carlo in 1906, however this certificate arrived and the fathers name is Bernardo!  Pasqualino is named as Pasquale (which he is known as on other records) and both he and his father are listed as Ice Cream sellers from North Shields.  Father is not noted as deceased.  Pasquales address is 40 Ellison Street, North Shields but I can't find this on a map, only an Ellison Street in Jarrow  ???  Interestingly Marieta's father is also called Bernardo.. that's a coincidence right or maybe a typo?  Her address is Princess Street, Newcastle.. another address I cannot find.  I've found some small references to the Di Carlo family but they are also quite elusive.  Marieta and Pasquale had a son Loretto in 1907 (I have birth and baptism records) then both mother and son disappear and Pasqualino went on to re-marry down in London (being a sailor I think he had 'a girl in every port').

Secondly, I ordered John George and Emma Anderson's marriage cert from 1911... on this JG father's name is JOHAN BATTISTA and he is a CUSTOMS HOUSE OFFICER.  John George's address is Church Street, North Shields and he is a Fish Quay Labourer, aged 21.. all of which fit.  Emma Anderson is noted as living at the same address but having searched her and her father John Anderson on the 1911 census for that address came up with zero.  Similarly and unsurprisingly, there is no trace of a JOHAN Battista anywhere in the north east at that time.

I remember some time back on this thread his other daughter Elizabeth's workhouse admission in 1912 which noted her fathers as "William, a Tailor".

I also think Giovanni has been noted to as FRANK before - on his first wife Elizabeth's burial record.

This truly is a mystery  :o :o :o
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #188 on: Saturday 13 October 18 21:27 BST (UK) »
Hi Sophie,

That is some very interesting new information there .. I am just en route to nightshift now but will take time to go over this and will get back on this in the next few days.

I thought I did get Henry Leo's baptism but I will have to go back over these posts.  Yes, Giovanni was down as Frank on Elizabeth's burial record.
Conroy, Fitzpatrick, Watson, Miller, Davis/Davies, Brown, Senior, Dodds, Grieveson, Gamesby, Simpson, Rose, Gilboy, Malloy, Dalton, Young, Saint, Anderson, Allen, McKetterick, McCabe, Drummond, Parkinson, Armstrong, McCarroll, Innes, Marshall, Atkinson, Glendinning, Fenwick, Bonner