Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Sophie,

I have had a look through my posts again and on post 95 (page 11) of mine, I did record Henry Leo's baptism at St Cuthbert RC, at North Shields.  His Godmother you will see was Maria Sedgwick.  There was no address on the record unfortunately.

Battista has related on (post 159 page 18) that he/she believes Giovanni was married in Italy and potentially may have had children there too.  So if so this would make Elizabeth the second wife.

That is very interesting that Giovanni is recorded as a CUSTOMS HOUSE OFFICER.
There is a CUSTOMS HOUSE in South Shields.  This is just over the River Tyne across from the fish quay at North Shields. Probably, only about a five minute walk from the ferry landing.

https://www.southtyneside.gov.uk/article/49502/The-Customs-House

There is also a CUSTOMS HOUSE in Newcastle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customs_House,_Newcastle_upon_Tyne

I wonder if it might be that Giovanni might have crossed the River to go and live and work at South Shields? All his changes of names!  I wonder what was behind all that?  I agree, this truly is all a mystery.  I think this might be doubtful, but I wonder if there may be any old registers of staff out there somewhere?

When I next get time I will fit in a visit to the archives to check if there was an Ellison Street in North Shields or not.  I think they have some street names books of the area at that time.  I could also check for the baptisms of Loreto (1907) and Bernard Battista - Freebmd also seems to have this son's registration in 1912 too.  I think they may possibly have been baptised at St Cuthbert, North Shields so I could try there.  Hopefully, if these records are found they may provide more useful information.

It has been a while now since I looked at those workhouse records.  I think I remember seeing Emma in the workhouse too at one point but I am not 100% certain about this now.  I do remember for definite that Dorothy Playford was also in the workhouse at one point but I did not note the dates - I only noted the ones of Giovanni's children.  I wonder if that may be where she first met her future husband to be?

I hope you are recovering well from your surgery.

I think Battista is going to have a good ally in you when trying to solve this mystery.  What an intriguing puzzle this is all turning out to be!

[River Tyne Lass]

Sophie, I have just inputted the words 'Ellison Street, North Shields into a search on British Newspaper Archives and from the results it appears that there was an Ellison Street in North Shields.

[River Tyne Lass]

I was at Tyne and Wear Archives yesterday so got the opportunity to look up the discharge for Lily in 1902 from the workhouse.  Sophie had mentioned discharge unknown.  This must have been an oversight on my part when I did the original workhouse searches.  I have checked again and can confirm that after Lily was admitted to the workhouse on 28 December 1901 she was then discharged on 6th March 1902 age 18.  The record doesn't give much more information apart from that she was admitted from North Shields and that her religion was 'EC'.

I also checked the the baptisms of Pasqualino's children - Loretto and Bernard.  Battista and Sophie, I am not sure if I am misunderstanding something but if Pasqualino married in 1906 and again in 1910 - could second marriage have been a bigamous one?  Second child baptized appears to be by first wife.

Loretto Battista
Baptised St Cuthbert, North Shields on 4 December 1907
Birthdate: 15 November 1907
Parents: Pasquale & Mariae Battista nee di Carlo
Address: 40 Elsdon Street  (Sophie I checked the microfilm twice as I remembered that you mentioned an address of 40 Ellison Street - however, in the St Cuthbert register the recording is definitely as 40 Elsdon Street.
Godparents: Francisco Rando & Joanna Rando

Bernardus Battista
Baptised 5 February 1912, St Cuthbert, North Shields
Born 29 January 1912
Parents: Pasquali Batista (sic) & Mariae Batista nee di Carlo
25 Coronation Street
Godmother: Rosa (P--?teoli) di Carlo is written but crossed out.

Here is the marriage record of Marianna you mentioned Sophie.  I thought I may as well get this when I had the opportunity just in case you and battista may not already have this for your records:

St Nicholas Cathedral, Newcastle upon Tyne
Entry 283
William Bell and Marianna Battista
Sept 2nd 1901
His age 20  Her age not completely clear - possibly 18?
Bachelor & Spinster
Writing not totally clear but looks like 'General Cartman' for William's profession
His address: 2 D--?  C--? Gallowgate
Her address: 22 Gallowgate
Fathers -
Jonathon Bell - (General Cartman?)
Vincenzo Battista - Tailor
Witnesses: Joseph Crowther Armstrong & Hannah Vickers
All signed

Also just in case you may want the information on baby Nicholas you mentioned Sophie

Evening Chronicle - Wednesday, April 18, 1900
'BATTISTA - Newcastle, 6 Stowell Street, on the 17th inst., aged 10 months, Nicholas Battista, beloved son of Mary Jane and the late Vincenzo Battista.  To be interred Elswick, 2.0 Friday.'

Nicholas's burial record on register is entry 34285.  He is record as 'Nicola' and is mistakenly entered as a 'Female'.  Where he is buried appears to me as Section J Grave no 86.  The J is fancy type writing.  On a previous post I wrote that I thought that Vincenzo was buried in section J but you Sophie, say this is a T.  I wonder if this is something that you have been told by the burial services staff.  If this is so, perhaps even though Nicholas's grave appears to be in section J it may actually be section T.  It may possibly be that Nicholas is in the grave next to his Father Vincenzo.

I hope all this information might be helpful.  I sometimes find that it can sometimes be worth looking at a number of records for clues when trying to solve a brickwall because you never know when you might see something or someone which might shed a chink of light on where to look next. 

[JenB]

Address: 40 Elsdon Street  (Sophie I checked the microfilm twice as I remembered that you mentioned an address of 40 Ellison Street - however, in the St Cuthbert register the recording is definitely as 40 Elsdon Street.

Just to confirm that: there is no Ellison Street, North Shields in the 1841 - 1891 National Archives census street indexes http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kun/ and I can't find it as a street name on a search of either the 1901 or 1911 censuses.

[battista]

Hey RTL, the marriage to Marieta might shed some light on another mystery in my family.

My grandmother told me she never even knew about her grandfather Pasqualino until she was a teenager. Her grandmother, Mary Elizabeth refused to talk about him, and there was a family-wide coverup of his existence. Elizabeth remarried to George Newton in 1926 and had all her children's surnames changed from Battista to Newton. All of Pasqualino's children to Elizabeth claimed to be children of their step-father on all their documents.

If this Pasqualino is my relative, that means he was probably living two lives. It would certainly explain why my relatives refused to acknowledge his existence.

Hmm, very confusing. I'm surprised none of this material came up when I was researching him. It's not completely clear to me whether this Pasqualino is the son of Giovanni, his marriage certificate to Marieta states his father is Bernando Battista. However, Marieta's father is also a Bernando, so possibly this is a mistake.

[River Tyne Lass]

Everything is so puzzling but perhaps all this as you say, Battista is starting to shed some light on some areas.  I do think it may well be possible that Pasqualino may have led two lives.

I know from the newspapers that another brother of Pasqualino, (I can't remember off the top of my head now who exactly) was taken to court for desertion by his wife later on.

Those times were so hard and I think today we can't fully imagine what an effect all this would have had on individual members in the family.  Bereavement, family break-up, struggling with a large family to make ends meet, etc.  The Battistas at that time certainly seemed to have had more than their fair share of misfortune and sad times.
Although, we still don't know what happened to Giovanni I wonder if he too may have deserted and may have led two lives?  Could he have possibly be the one who remarried down south?  I know there is an age discrepancy, but I think he may possibly have been able to get away with it.  He may have reduced age to match a younger wife, possibly.

It is so strange that their is no death or burial for Giovanni in the local area.  Also strange, is that there was nothing in the papers regarding possible accidental tragedy - none of his family seem to have alerted in the newspapers that he was a missing person.  To me it appears that they knew what had happened to him and just got on with things.  I could be totally wrong on this.  Hopefully, one day the mystery surrounding all this might be uncovered.

Regarding the marriage record - when researching, this is not the first time in a Catholic register that I have come across someone being attributed with the same parents as their spouse. 

[River Tyne Lass]

Just to add further on when Sophie mentioned the Elizabeth in the workhouse with a Father as 'William' who was recorded as a tailor.  I wonder if the William may be the father of Elizabeth's baby rather than a referral to her own Father?

When Elizabeth left  the Tynemouth workhouse the first time she went with 'W. Brabant'.  Could he have been the tailor mentioned?  Perhaps she went off to work for him.  She is recorded as having come back to Tynemouth from another workhouse.  I wonder if the William a tailor may have not been able to support her and the baby for whatever reason, such as death, or desertion.

[Love&Leaves]

Hi all,

Definitely useful to have as much info as possible to cross reference... thanks again RTL.

Pasqualino's does appear to be a bigamist if he is one and the same as Pasquale, although I do not think Marieta lived very long.  I cannot find trace of her after the marriage.  I have a record from England Select Burials & Deaths for a Maria Battista in 1916, but when I applied to the GRO for a death cert they couldn't find one.

What I have on Marieta is that she came to UK with her brother Antonio De Carlo and his wife Restituta.  She is on the 1901 census with them, lodging in Trafalgar St with the Letoria's (a renowned lodge for Italian immigrants), aged 11.  Their father Bernardo must have stayed in Italy and died there (he is deceased on her marriage cert to Pasquale). 

The family are then on the 1911 census - Tony, Rosie (Restituta) and three children, the youngest of whom is 5 month old Bernardo.  But no mention of Marieta, Loretto nor Bernardo Battista.  Very interestingly though Antonio is an 'Ice Cream Merchant' and the family are living at Providence Place, Felling (all three children born in Felling).  I think this last fact along with them having lodged at the same place in Trafalgar St as the Battista brothers first did, makes it highly likely the two families (De Carlo's and Battista's) knew each other well.

Battista - all of this info is on my tree along with some more about the De Carlo family.  They have a descendant on there who has uploaded some great photo's, none of Marieta sadly.

To clarify two other bits of info RTL provided.. the address on William & Marianna's marriage cert of 22 Gallowgate is the address of Vincenzo's confectionary/tobacconists shop.  We also know he had premises at 71 Percy Street.  Also I did know about little Nicola and he is definitely buried next to his father.. I am not sure why he wouldn't have been buried with his father but at least he is next to him 

[Love&Leaves]

Yes - it was James Battista who deserted his wife Dorothy Playford I think.. I've seen the same article.  Doesn't mention wives name but I haven't come across another marriage for him.

Re Elizabeth, I have tried searching for William Brabant country wide on the 1911 but nothing turned up so far.

Another point on the Marieta/Pasquale marriage - the coincidence of the trade being Ice Cream Sellers (both Pasquale and his father Bernardo)    I have another newspaper cutting from August 1911 about a Pasquair Battista who was charged with obstructing the street in Whitley Bay.  Apparently this Pasquair pretended he didn't speak a word of English but was caught out when the prosecution proved he had been selling Ice Cream on the streets for 10 years! 

I guess this would suggest there was another Pasquair/Pasquale/Pasqualino Battista as our Pasqualino was in continuous Naval service from 1896.  Just very strange there is no record of these people though