Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Sophie,

Yes, I am also wondering if there might be a possibility that Pasqualino was leading a double life.  I have come across this type of thing before when researching so do not think that this would be beyond the realms of possibility. 

See battista's post 193.  I wonder if Mary Elizabeth may have discovered that she was not married to Pasqualino because he was already married to someone else?  Perhaps this and the fact that this would render her children illegitimate (big stigma at that time) - this might have caused the rift and the outcome of  relatives refusing to acknowledge Pasqualino's existence, etc.  I think something profound must have happened from what I  read about the situation on battista's post.

I think that because Pasqualino had family in North Shields he may perhaps have been able to explain regular trips to the area to wife Mary Elizabeth.  Perhaps this might be a case of me imagining skulduggery where  it may not exist - but I do think we should keep an open mind at this point.  Also, wasn't  Antonio Battista taken out of the workhouse at one point by a brother who was likely to have been Pasqualino.  I think this shows the latter was around.  I wonder what became of Loretto, Antonio and Bernard Battista who were the children of Pasquale and Marieta?

By the way Sophie, might it be worth you and battista posting the signatures on the Pasquale/Pasqualino marriage certificates so that RootsChatters might be able to compare these and check for any similarities?  If these two men are one and the same the signatures may provide some evidence.

Incidentally, regarding Antonio Battista - birth registered in September quarter 1909 - I am wondering why there are two entries on freebmd?  Volume 10b pages 232 and 262.

I am working nightshifts at the moment but when I can next get to the library I could have a look at some local directories of the time and see if anything of help is in there.

I am also thinking that it might be helpful if I look in the local school records of that time.  I think I need to work out which schools may have been near the addresses where they lived in the North Shields area.  School log books can sometimes contain good information about our ancestors.  My own  Grandfather's cousins attended the Murton Council School (early 1900s - North Shields vicinity) and when I checked the log books I found various interesting entries which showed things like that these cousins of my Grandfather were not always well behaved and were punished.  I also found that one had moved in with his Grandparents after widowed Mother had remarried and where she and new husband were living.  There was also an entry about this boy's Grandfather getting a fine for allowing absenteeism. (Although these logs  Murton (primary)don't show on User Guides they do have  have them so these were likely acquired after guides came out.)

I am just mentioning this to show that school logs can sometimes be very interesting and useful sources of information about our ancestors.   Of course, some logs might be exceedingly dull and not relate a great deal about anything.  I think these might be worth checking though just in case there might be any references to the Battistas  which might provide clues.  There may be nothing of note to report but I think this is definitely worth a try.  You will see that there are several North Shields schools shown on the Tyne and and Wear User Guides.

http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/pdf/userguide15c.pdf

I think I could also see if I can find anything on this Maria Loreta  you have mentioned.  You will no doubt remember on this thread that Elizabeth Battista (Giovanni's wife) is incorrectly recorded as 12 at death when she was actually in her forties  (freebmd) so I would not necessarily rule out Maria Loreta as not worth any further investigation just yet. 

I will also ask at the library to see if the staff may have any other ideas relating to addresses which we may not have thought of.  Give me a few weeks or so and I will see if I might be able to find out anything else.

[battista]

Marriage records:

Pasqualino Battista (confirmed son of Giovanni):



Pasquale Battista (the other one):



The bottom one is a bit pixelated, Sophie should have a higher quality scan.

[battista]

What I don't understand is why are the names and the age on the first marriage all messed up? If these two people are the same, I would expect the second marriage to have all the inconsistencies and "mistakes", as it would've been illegitimate. The marriage in 1910 has all the right details.

1906 marriage has Bernando for both fathers, a bit odd. Whatever the story is for this Pasquale, it is certainly confusing.

Pasqualino, son of Giovanni's last service date in the navy was 3rd of Dec 1920. Which might be an important date to figure out if there's any correlation between these two men.

[battista]

I just realised those records I posted must be transcribed, they don't have the original signatures on them?

This looks like the original signatures:

[Tickettyboo]

I would hazard a guess that the document with 'original' signatures is from the Parish Marriage Register. As its an Anglican Church, the layout and format is the same as a civil cert (because it was the established church). That register would have been retained by the church - until such time as they deposited in the relevant archives.


The others have either come via the GRO or the local registrar. I 'think' (but may be wrong) that the register that the local registrar holds is a contemporary copy of the church register, it may or may not have also been signed by the participants ( I am unsure about that)  but not all local registrars photocopy the entry from their register onto the blank certificate like the GRO do (many still hand write them to order) so they may not have original signatures either.

A certificate issued by a local registrar says
" Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a register in my custody"



A copy of the  register held by the local registrar was made and sent to the GRO

Certs issued by the GRO these days 'look' at first glance to be contemporary as they have photocopied the register entry onto the cert., BUT
A certificate issued by the GRO says
" Certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a register of Marriages in the Registration District of {....} 

As the source document is a certified copy of the register, GRO issued certs will NOT have original signatures.

Boo

[River Tyne Lass]

battista, thanks for putting up these images.

Boo, just to clarify does this mean that a GRO certificate will show a copied version of the original?  That is to say that signatures will appear in the style of the original signature?

Although, the signatures are not totally identical I think I can see similarities in written style.  Most noticeable is the jutting line to the left of the base of the letter 'P'.  There also appears to be a tiny loop on the inside of the 'B' on the Newcastle marriage on post 253 and the Wandsworth one on post 255.  Both these 'B's are open at the base.   The small final 'a' also shows a similar upward stroke at the end.

[Tickettyboo]

Others will have more knowledge of this than me, but I checked both local registrars certs I have and GRO certs.
The GRO ones clearly state at the bottom that its an entry from 'a certified COPY of a register held at {district name}'. As such, I don't believe that a GRO issued cert can have original signatures.

The first image in the post (no background colour on the page) is definitely original signatures. Given that the body of the document is all in the same hand apart from the bride, groom and witness signatures and there is no background colour, I'd say that is from the parish register.

The other two are either GRO issued or local registrar issued and all the writing on each of them is in the same hand, plus the background colouring is a dead giveaway.

Added: meant to say I'd very much doubt that any attempt would be made to copy the 'style' of a signature. If a copy was being made the criteria would be accuracy of information, so that it could be certified as a true copy, they wont have put any emphasis on making it look the same. No scanners way back then and copying an entire register would have been time consuming.

Boo

[Love&Leaves]

Fab idea about comparing the signatures RTL - I had already contacted the GRO about the first marriage, as this definitely is a copy that has been re-written out this year.  I am waiting to hear if it's possible to get a copy of the original entry.  As Boo rightly says, the last one Battista posted is an actual copy of the marriage banns from the second marriage and is Pasqualino's signature.  The first marriage was RC though so I don't know if its the same as CofE where the register is actually signed or if the priest fills it out.  If I can get hold of an original scan, it would certainly clear this up 

RTL - the two Anthonys on Freemb is a mistake.  The same document has been transcribed twice for some reason.  If you look at the images attached to each one they are the same, just one is more difficult to read and the page number has been transcribed wrong - 262 vs. 232.

Battista - I can definitely see where you are coming from concerning your expectation that the second marriage should have the inconsistencies.  However our Pasqualino is Pasquale on his birth certificate and also on the 1881 census aged 2.  Pasqualino is a diminutive of Pasquale I think?  So the name is entirely correct.  The age is out on the first marriage but by just 3 years and I think this could have been because of Marieta's age.. I have seen this with my own GGGfather Vincenzo - he lies about his age (as well as my GGGmothers) because she was so young (and already pregnant) and there was such an age difference (15 yrs).  I think it was common at the time because of changing social attitudes towards child protection (see my earlier post).  Marieta is just turned 11 on the 1901 census and the birth date I have for her from a descendant on Ancestry is Apr 1890 so this would make her not long turned 16.  It is possible Marieta was pregnant which forced the marriage but she lost the child.

Pasqualino's service record has been very useful - I actually did a spreadsheet (lol - I've got far too much time on my hands atm  ) with all of Pasqualino's stations versus the key dates in the two marriages/childrens births.  I will email it to you Battista - I can't find anything that would rule him out as not able to be in North Shields on and off, in the years prior to WW1 at least.

[Tickettyboo]

Fab idea about comparing the signatures RTL - I had already contacted the GRO about the first marriage, as this definitely is a copy that has been re-written out this year.  I am waiting to hear if it's possible to get a copy of the original entry.  As Boo rightly says, the last one Battista posted is an actual copy of the marriage banns from the second marriage and is Pasqualino's signature.  The first marriage was RC though so I don't know if its the same as CofE where the register is actually signed or if the priest fills it out.  If I can get hold of an original scan, it would certainly clear this up 

 Its slightly more complicated if the marriage was non conformist. In my experience the RC parish marriage registers did not use the same format as the established church/civil records and signatures may not have been made in the parish register at all (though do sometimes mention the bride/grooms mother as well as the father). TWAS will have the relevant parish marriage register on microfilm though if they can be checked.
What does the cert you have say at the bottom? If it says its an entry from 'a certified COPY of a register held at {district name}' then I'd guess the GRO only have a copy register (and what you can see is a scan of that entry photocopied onto the blank certificate)

It may be worth emailing Newcastle Registrars and enquiring if their register includes original signatures and if so, if you purchase a copy from them will what you receive have those original signatures on the cert. Not all local registrars scan the entry and photocopy it onto the blank certificate, many still hand write them to order.

Boo