Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks for the clear up on whose daughter Grace up - this was my confusion.

Jomot, I find this puzzling that the Marriage Locator researchers visit the county record offices - Christine and I have both visited our nearest archives and the records are not there.

[Jomot]

It does seem odd, doesn't it?  According to Genuki the records are with Northumberland Archives, and  if Marriage Locator have accessed them then presumably they must have had them at some point 

"Fenham, St Augustine. Baptisms 1892-1993 and marriages 1892-1993. For earlier records see Benwell, St James"   

Added: Is this the same church?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/408266?availability=Family%20History%20Library

[River Tyne Lass]

Sophie, I know James Battista travelled .. might this be him using an alias in a boarding house?  Charged with riding a bike without a light?

Berks and Oxon Advertiser - 16 November 1928

'DEFENDANT WHO "GAVE HIMSELF AWAY."
SMART WORK BY P.C. MORTIMORE

A man whose name and address were given as George Marshall, of 28 Steven Street, Reading, was charged with riding a bicycle without a light on September 27th.  He pleaded guilty and P.C. Mortimer went to Reading and found the defendant in a common lodging house, using another name, and it had been found that his correct name was James Battista.  The defendant had given the police a lot of trouble.
In a statement the defendant said he was using his mother's name.
P.C. Mortimore added that the defendant at Reading first denied all knowledge of the offence.  The witness then asked why he had not returned from a Turners Court man.  The defendant replied that the man was coming to Reading for it.
Mr. Rich: He gave himself away
A fine of 10s. was imposed and the defendant apologized for the trouble he had given.'

I am wondering after reading of all these (possible) accounts of  alias names in this thread and after reading a little while ago Catchugenta's post (no 302)  if Giovanni may have become embroiled in some type of trouble and may have had to 'disappear' under his own name and start using an alias himself?  That is if he wasn't the Giovanni who went on to marry Camilla.

If he used an alias I would imagine it might have some similarity to his own name or some connection to him.  I think he might have had to have move out of the North Tyneside area at least.  Possibly the closest he might be able to stay would be Sunderland.  I think he may have kept reasonably close to some of his family members so he may possibly have moved as far as Wandsworth.  It might be that when Giovanni died he may have been buried under an alias.

This is all just speculation, of course.  However, I think I wouldn't rule out that there may have been an alias now when proceeding with this search.

I think  it is interesting that only the Battista siblings went into the workhouse and no one from the Whelan side.   

I think it is also interesting that when Anastasia died there is no mention of her as a Battista or as wife of Giovanni in her death notice.

[River Tyne Lass]

Thank you Jomot.  I have just seen your post after posting my long one.

Christine, I wonder if it might be possible just whenever you may next be at Northumberland Archives to mention to the staff about what Jomot has posted on here and ask what may have happened to this records?

It would be fantastic if they do turn out to be there after all and they might not have been catalogued or something.

I do think it would be good to find out what happened to this Francis and if the 1910 marriage might be the one who previously married Lily.  I do voluntary war research so I do have a personal interest in unraveling all this.   

[River Tyne Lass]

Whoo Hoo!  I have noticed on the link that Jomot has kindly given that this does appear to be the Church. 

Tickettyboo, might there be any chance that you might possibly be able to look this marriage at the Family History Centre whenever you might next be able to go.  Totally, understand if you are too busy but it you could look this up it would be marvelous.

I think it looks like the marriages might be there.  Thank you very much Jomot

[JenB]

So disappointed - the only records for St. Augustine, Fenham held at Woodhorn are baptisms 1945-1983. 

So, if neither TWAS nor Woodhorn have the marriages it seems likely that they are still at the church.

I'm not sure they can still be at the church, since it was declared redundant by the Church of England in 1993 and was then acquired by the Coptic Church as their Cathedral dedicated to St George & St Athanasius.

If the church was declared redundant you'd think the records would all have been removed and placed in the Archives 

Edit I've just seen Jomot's edit 

[Tickettyboo]

Whoo Hoo!  I have noticed on the link that Jomot has kindly given that this does appear to be the Church. 

Tickettyboo, might there be any chance that you might possibly be able to look this marriage at the Family History Centre whenever you might next be able to go.  Totally, understand if you are too busy but it you could look this up it would be marvelous.

I think it looks like the marriages might be there.  Thank you very much Jomot

This one?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPHF-FBPR

Of course I'll look at it RTL.
I am hoping to go either next Tuesday or the Tuesday after. Will report back as soon as I can. Have added it to my list.

Boo

[Tickettyboo]

The listing of Anglican Registers on the Woodhorn website indicates that Woodhorn 'does' hold these records? (though I have seen errors on that list before)

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ngi/

EDIT   TWAS user guide to parish registers seem to have marriages on microfilm too?
billed as Newcastle (Fenham), St Augustine of Hippo  m 1892-1901


 Family Search give a reference for the registers they filmed as being:
Morpeth Record Office: EP 144/1-3, 5-8, 25-28

Which of those references may contain the marriages I have no idea, but I'll look at the FHC images as soon as I can.

Boo

[battista]

I am wondering after reading of all these (possible) accounts of  alias names in this thread and after reading a little while ago Catchugenta's post (no 302)  if Giovanni may have become embroiled in some type of trouble and may have had to 'disappear' under his own name and start using an alias himself?  That is if he wasn't the Giovanni who went on to marry Camilla.

If he used an alias I would imagine it might have some similarity to his own name or some connection to him.  I think he might have had to have move out of the North Tyneside area at least.  Possibly the closest he might be able to stay would be Sunderland.  I think he may have kept reasonably close to some of his family members so he may possibly have moved as far as Wandsworth.  It might be that when Giovanni died he may have been buried under an alias.

This is all just speculation, of course.  However, I think I wouldn't rule out that there may have been an alias now when proceeding with this search.

I think  it is interesting that only the Battista siblings went into the workhouse and no one from the Whelan side.   

I think it is also interesting that when Anastasia died there is no mention of her as a Battista or as wife of Giovanni in her death notice.

On Anastasia Battista's death certificate it states "widow of Giovanni Battista". I believe the Whelan children must have ended up with their mum after Giovanni disappeared, the Battistas went to the workhouse instead.

What's interesting to me is the informant was J. Slavin (John Slavin), who was the husband of Anastasia Battista's daughter (also named Anastasia). A. Battista died in 1934, her daughter died 12 years earlier in 1922 (death certificate and death index confirm the Anastasia who died in 1922 was the one married to J. Slavin). Now, two things are of interest to me...

• J. Slavin was present at his mother-in-laws death, 12 years after his wife had died. In fact, I think I recall seeing some electoral registers (or something like that) showing that he lived with his mother-in-law for some time after his wife's death. Perhaps he was still living with her when she died. It's a bit odd he stuck around that long?
• J. Slavin married Anastasia Jr. in 1916, that's 10-16 years after Giovanni's last appearance (I think the last record is in 1902/3?). He recorded his mother-in-law's occupation as the widow of his wife's step-father who hadn't been seen for at least 10 years prior to their marriage, and at least 30 years since her death. This death certificate is the only place she's mentioned as the widow of Giovanni, that I know of. All other records list her as widow of her first husband, Michael Whalen.

I think it's certainly not out of the question Giovanni left his family and went by another name. The most likely scenario to me is that he went back to Italy. Unfortunately, his home province does not have their records digitized yet and the FamilySearch records only go as far as 1839 for deaths in his town.