Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[Tickettyboo]

Okay so I have been to the FHC this morning
Marriage 2nd April 1910 at the Parish Church in the Parish of St Augustine in the County of Newcastle-upon-Tyne
entry 26
Groom: Francis Spence, age 28, Bachelor, miner,
address: 20 Gainster(?? am unsure about that word) Street, Father: Francis Spence, mariner

Bride: Ann Fenton, 25, Spinster, no occupation recorded,
address:110 Brighton Grove, Father: Henry Fenton, Brass Finisher

By Banns

both signed
witnesses: James [?H]aley, Elizabeth Jane Haley

When I tried to download the image, I got a message saying that, because of contractual agreements with the record holders, downloading the image is not allowed.

I compared the groom's signature to the one on the service record for the man who is 'possible/likely' to be Vincent who died in WW1 and, in my opinion, its not the same.


Boo

[JenB]

I think this particular Francis Spence is the son of Elizabeth and Francis Spence. Francis was a mariner, born in India.

Here is the family in 1881  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-SJ6X

The family apparently includes a Frances Spence, daughter, born Howdon.

However looking at the 1891 census (RG 12 / 4223/ 70/ 12)  it is clear that this is an error, because in the household in that year is a 16 year old Francis, born Howdon.

Looking at the 1911 free index on GR, Howdon was the birthplace of Francis who married Ann in 1910.

The marriage shows Francis was a miner, and doing a free search on the 1911, this matches.

This also matches the occupation of Francis in the 1939 register, where his birth date is given as 1874, which matches with the birth registration of Francis Spence, 4q 1874, Tynemouth 10b, 159. Howdon was in Tynemouth Registration District.

[Tickettyboo]

I think this particular Francis Spence is the son of Elizabeth and Francis Spence. Francis was a mariner, born in India.

Here is the family in 1881  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-SJ6X

The family apparently includes a Frances Spence, daughter, born Howdon.

However looking at the 1891 census (RG 12 / 4223/ 70/ 12)  it is clear that this is an error, because in the household in that year is a 16 year old Francis, born Howdon.

Looking at the 1911 free index on GR, Howdon was the birthplace of Francis who married Ann in 1910.

The marriage shows Francis was a miner, and doing a free search on the 1911, this matches.

This also matches the occupation of Francis in the 1939 register, where his birth date is given as 1874, which matches with the birth registration of Francis Spence, 4q 1874, Tynemouth 10b, 159. Howdon was in Tynemouth Registration District.

and is likely to be the Frank Spence that was in the KSOB (see posts 320 and 323)

Boo

[JenB]

I think this particular Francis Spence is the son of Elizabeth and Francis Spence. Francis was a mariner, born in India.

Here is the family in 1881  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-SJ6X

The family apparently includes a Frances Spence, daughter, born Howdon.

However looking at the 1891 census (RG 12 / 4223/ 70/ 12)  it is clear that this is an error, because in the household in that year is a 16 year old Francis, born Howdon.

Looking at the 1911 free index on GR, Howdon was the birthplace of Francis who married Ann in 1910.

The marriage shows Francis was a miner, and doing a free search on the 1911, this matches.

This also matches the occupation of Francis in the 1939 register, where his birth date is given as 1874, which matches with the birth registration of Francis Spence, 4q 1874, Tynemouth 10b, 159. Howdon was in Tynemouth Registration District.

and is likely to be the Frank Spence that was in the KSOB (see posts 320 and 323)

Boo

Having checked everything through again I have no doubt at all that the Francis Spence who married Ann Fenton in 1910 was still living in Newcastle in the mid 1950’s.

Francis and Ann (Fenton) had three children in Newcastle between 1920 and 1924 (freeBMD).
One of them was with them in 1939 going by the free index to the 1939 register.

[River Tyne Lass]

Firstly,  many thanks Boo for going along to the Family History Centre yesterday and doing this look up on my behalf.  I really do appreciate this so much. 

I now strongly tend to believe that Francis did commit bigamy with Ann and that my hunch about this is right. 

I agree with  the other information which you both (Boo and Jen) have provided.  I think this Francis's Father who was the mariner died in North Shields in 1912 and is buried in Preston Cemetery.  I have all the information but I do not have my notebook to hand at the moment.  I believe this Francis who married Lily and Ann as it would seem, had parents who married at St Paul, in Whitley Bay.  (Francis Spence and Elizabeth Granger/Grainger).

Just a few of my thoughts on why Vincent may have used an alias of Francis's name...

Perhaps for some reason Vincent was in trouble of some sort and perceived he was under some sort of threat.  He may have felt it was expedient/safer to disappear under an alias - to be hidden/invisible as Vincent Battista.  Perhaps he used Francis' name because Francis himself could be in trouble if it all came out about the bigamous marriage.  Francis might have been sent to prison and his family left unsupported.  I think Francis would have  been an ideal candidate to use the identity of as  he was in no position to make waves if it came to it. 

I know this is just my speculation and speculation is not fact.  I just like to try to think about what may have been the scenario.

[JenB]

RTL, please forgive me, but I am confused.

Boo said this (reply 323)

Thanks Jomot, Sceptre St is right.

1918 Absent Voters list 76 Sceptre St, Elswick has
Spence,  Francis  KSOB service no 3619 (rather than the 8619 on the pension index card, but that's possibly misread/ transcribed from the form ) who is listed as a Prisoner in Germany.

He and his wife, Ann, were listed on the electoral registers at that address from 1920 onwards and are still at that address in 1939 on the National ID Register (by which time he is recorded as Francis E) and the last time I can see him on the electoral register at that address is 1958

So I'd say that discounts the KSOB man in the Illustrated Chronicle photo as the husband of Lily

RTL, you agreed with this in the next posting (324)

Oh well, we can rule that man out then.

Looking at all the evidence the man in question, who served in the KOSB, was clearly the one who married Ann Fenton in 1910. Apart from all the other evidence, the marriage is noted on his service record.

But, having ruled him out as a potential husband for Lily in reply 324, you now seem to be saying that he did marry her after all?

Sorry if I've got wrong 

[River Tyne Lass]

No , Jen you have not got that wrong.  I did rule him out at that point but after this started to have second thoughts.  That was why I asked for this marriage to be looked up.

Perhaps I should have posted though to say I was having second thoughts about that comment - rather than just asking for a marriage and signature check if possible.

It seems a bit of a coincidence that there would be two Francis Spence associated with the North Shields area, both miners, both with Father's called Francis who were mariners. 

I wasn't questioning that someone of this name married Ann Fenton.  I just wanted to find out Father's name and occupation.
This corresponds with what is on marriage record with Lily.  Father also fits with marriage, death notice and burial I have come across too.

[Tickettyboo]

There is no dispute that there are many similarities for the Grooms of both marriages, which makes it 'possible' they are the same person and the second marriage 'may' be bigamous. Proving that is a much more difficult task.

The Francis Spence who married Ann Fenton in 1910 checks out (as JenB posted) as highly likely to be the son of Francis Spence and Elizabeth Grainger whose birth was registered in 1874, Tynemouth District.
One of the Spence-Fenton children , born in 1914 was John William Grainger Spence which is definite plus point.

I've scoured this thread and other than the Francis Spence marriage in 1905 to Lily, which indicates that the groom was born c1880, I can't (though may have missed it) see any other record for this Francis Spence tying him into Lily and giving info re birthplace/age.

Other than the fact that he married in the North Shields area is there any indication that he was born in that area?
If there isn't then, to get more info to decide whether these two marriages were for the same person or not, the search for another Francis Spence would have to stretch over a much wider area?

Boo

[Love&Leaves]

Hi!  Have been reading all this with great interest!  I am also hopeful RTL that all this can be unravelled, not least because of everyones tenacity and determination.  Massive thanks to Boo, Jen and Christine and as always to RTL.

A little update from me... I spent last weekend in Newcastle actually meeting some new Battista cousins!  Nothing major to report from them as yet, they are a different branch to Giovanni.  However, there is loads of interest and it is a huge family so there is bound to be some new information to come soon.

I visited Elswick Cemetery to see the graves of many Battista's there, which have been found and marked by one of my newly friended cousins.  Very poignant to stand by the graves of my Great Grandfather and my Great Great Grandparents.  I also went to All Saints and can second Battista in confirming Anastasia definitely doesn't have a headstone.  Another note re her death, the burial register has her as Anastasia Whelan alias Battista 

Also went to T&W Archives and spent a few happy hours there looking through their treasures.. the most important fact to be found was the burial for Pasqualino Battista (Giovanni's eldest) who is in Preston Cemetery along with his sister Lily.  That will be a trip for my next visit I think.

Sadly I don't think there will be any headstone for any Battista's of that generation... a possible consideration concerning the Whelan's having any means.... if Anastasia and her daughter Anastasia being buried together had any why didn't they have a stone