Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Thank you Jen for this and for the link.

Again something else found in relation to James.

Here is another entry from the Tynemouth Union Minutes (Volume 1915-16) at North Shields library, local studies:

Page 176

'CHILDREN SUB-COMMITTEE (re Accounts)
At a Meeting of the Children Sub-Committee (re Accounts) held at the Union Institution, North Shields, on Thursday, the 19th day of August 1915 at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. ..

..  JAMES BATTISTA
A notice of discharge from the Wellesley Training Ship was submitted in the case of James Battista, a boy previously chargeable to the Guardians, who had been placed as Messroom Steward on the S.S. "Westonby" at a salary of £4 per month all found. ...'

[River Tyne Lass]

Could Giovanni have been living possibly much later than thought!!

Tynemouth Union Minutes 1914-15 (Volumes at North Shields Local Studies)
Page 28 entry re James Battista

'Children Committee
At a Meeting of Guardians acting as temporary Children Committee, held at the Scattered Homes, Earsdon, on Thursday, the 16th day of April, 1914 at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. ...

... JAMES BATTISTA (15).
Resolved: "That the powers and rights of the parent of the following child, now chargeable, be and they are hereby vested in the Guardians of the Union until the said child attains the age of 18 years or until this resolution is amended or rescinded, in accordance with the provisions of the Poor Law Acts 1889 and 1899, viz:-
James Battista (15) - Deserted by father.  Mother dead." '

[Jomot]

Now that is interesting!  If Giovanni deserted the family then he could be anywhere under any name.  Maybe that chap in London was him after all.....

[River Tyne Lass]

Yes, I agree Jomot.  Perhaps he might be that chap in London or perhaps he went back to Italy, after all. 

Those Union minute books are fascinating to read. 

I wonder what the story may have been behind waiting twelve years from when James was three until age fifteen before making him 'chargeable' to the Guardians?

I wonder if they had been trying to find Giovanni all that time?  They must surely have got the information from family that he had deserted.  At least this entry suggests that his death was not the reason the family went into the workhouse.

I have more entries from these Minutes to add for Battista descendants and will be adding these when I get more time.

[Jomot]

I wonder what the story may have been behind waiting twelve years from when James was three until age fifteen before making him 'chargeable' to the Guardians?

Hi RTL
I don't think that the phrase 'now chargeable' means that he had just become chargeable, more that he was chargeable at that time, ie currently chargeable.

[River Tyne Lass]

Yes, Jomot I think you are right. 

Just to catch up with  some finds from the Tynemouth Union Minutes I am adding some entries below.  Not that this relates in any way to the goal of finding Giovanni.  However, since I came across these I might as well add in case they might be of interest to someone out there.

This was taken from the Minutes of '29th day of May 1913  Page 88':

.. 'WILLIAM A. BATTISTA
A notice was submitted from the Captain Superintendent of the "Wellesley" Training Ship, stating that William A. Battista, who had previously been rejected for the Royal Naval School of Music, Portsmouth, had now been admitted on trial on being specially recommended by him.
Resolved "That the thanks of the Committee be tendered to Commander Kit Kat for his efforts on behalf of this boy.'

This was from the Minutes of 1st February 1917 Page 316:
.. 'JAMES BATTISTA
The Clerk reported that this youth having lost his kit, had been to the "Wellesley" Training Ship where they had provided him with a fresh one and had succeeded in placing him as a messroom steward at a wage of £7.10.0d per month.
(Approved)'

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi battista & Sophie & Battista Clan,

https://www.troubador.co.uk/bookshop/history-politics-society/out-of-italy/

You may be interested to know about the above book - if you are not aware of this already.  I came across this book yesterday at Newcastle library in the local studies department.

There is a very good photo of Vincenzo Battista on page 104.  It is a studio portrait and he is looking very smart in a suit and trilby style hat.  Also, all three brothers are written about - Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio.  Vincenzo's grand funeral is referenced with at least 300 people attending.  It is also mentioned how Giovanni and Vincenzo were some of the first southern settlers in the region and how instrumental they were in helping others.  Apparently, both Giovanni and Vincenzo helped someone called Giambattista Lertoria set up his ice cream business and became close friends and associates of organ grinders' boss Nicola Dipreta. Also referenced is Vincenzo's confectionery shop in Gallowgate and Giovanni's street music business and penny ice cream business in Tynemouth.  The feature ends with that all the brothers had numerous children and that the Battista clan is now one of the largest clans of Italian descent now on Tyneside.

[battista]

Hi battista & Sophie & Battista Clan,

https://www.troubador.co.uk/bookshop/history-politics-society/out-of-italy/

You may be interested to know about the above book - if you are not aware of this already.  I came across this book yesterday at Newcastle library in the local studies department.

There is a very good photo of Vincenzo Battista on page 104.  It is a studio portrait and he is looking very smart in a suit and trilby style hat.  Also, all three brothers are written about - Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio.  Vincenzo's grand funeral is referenced with at least 300 people attending.  It is also mentioned how Giovanni and Vincenzo were some of the first southern settlers in the region and how instrumental they were in helping others.  Apparently, both Giovanni and Vincenzo helped someone called Giambattista Lertoria set up his ice cream business and became close friends and associates of organ grinders' boss Nicola Dipreta. Also referenced is Vincenzo's confectionery shop in Gallowgate and Giovanni's street music business and penny ice cream business in Tynemouth.  The feature ends with that all the brothers had numerous children and that the Battista clan is now one of the largest clans of Italian descent now on Tyneside.

Wow this is amazing, thank you so much. I'm very interested in reading this!

[River Tyne Lass]

You are welcome battista.  I think it must have been fate that I found it as I was looking for something else when I came across this.  Even though I have no Italian ancestors I felt I should pick this up and thumb through when I saw it.  How amazed I was to see the photo of Vincenzo!  He looks incredibly smart looking - the photo appears to have been taken at a studio in Northumberland Street which is very close to the Newcastle City library. 

The books also mentions that all these three brothers Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio were, unusually for the time, literate.  It is also referenced how the consular agent Montaldi consoled Vincenzo's widow with high praise of her husband on his early death of pneumonia.

The book also gives the Italian surnames from this area and relates where these originated from.  'Battista' is listed under 'Cassino'.

This book has loads of interesting photos and illustrations.  There is even a photo in the book of the St Mary's Church in Sunderland where Pasqualino was baptised.  Mind, this is not in connection with his baptism.  This is shown because this appears to have been one of the Churches used by the Italians.  I think this is a highly interesting book, very readable and I think likely to be very useful to anyone who may have Italian ancestors in this region.