Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

A very warm welcome to RootsChat, elliesboys!  I think this is great that you have an ancestor and have now joined this fascinating thread.

I don't know where you hail from but if you hail from Tyneside you will see by reading through this thread that the Battistas seem to be well documented in this area and it will be possible for you to see the various records firsthand at local libraries, archives etc.

When researching for the Battista thread, I have also come across references here and there for the Playfords too.  I am just recalling from memory but I do believe I saw a baptism for Dorothy at Christ Church and I do think Dorothy might have met James in the workhouse as I do think I saw her name in the records.

I do believe sister Ethel was there too.  I am sure Ethel will be long dead now so I think it will be okay to mention her.  Ethel is mentioned in the Tynemouth Union Minutes 1915-16 on page 241 - apparently they were going to send her away for training to Springfield House, Shotley Bridge.  However, on a follow up 'minutes' on page 323 it reports that she had absconded from there.

I wonder if your family may have any oral history which may have been passed down regarding where Giovanni may have disappeared to?  I also wonder which Battista ancestors may have visited your relation when he was on the Wellesley?  This is interesting to hear they kept in touch.

If the putative child in the workhouse to Ena Clarkson, your ancestor and the children to Lily it would appear that James had 6 offspring.  Wouldn't it be great if some descendant may have had some oral history passed down to them on the mystery of Giovanni!  The minutes record that Giovanni 'deserted' but didn't record where to. 

[elliesboys]

Hi there,

Thank you so much for replying!! 

Yes we all still live in the Tynemouth and Northumberland area. My Grandad or Dorothy never moved away. We have really just started our research so knowing we can get a lot from the various local places will be fab. Were DESPERATE for a picture of James.
We think my Grandad may have been named after James's Brother John.

My Grandad never really talked about his father much as he really didn't know him. I know the papers say Dorothy left him but we were told it was James who left them. They did meet at the workhouse. My Great Grandad wouldn't allow them to marry (underage) so that's why the wedding took place after my Grandad was born. My Grandad was never aware of siblings I am going to see if Dorothy may have gone on to have more we were not aware of.

We do know when Dorothy visited my Grandad at the Wellesley she used the name Mrs Battista. This is on records in the 1930's. James seems to have thought she had gone back to using her Maiden name?? He think this was incorrect.

We have also came across Ethel! We seem to believe she died quite young.
Unfortunately I cannot give any information on Giovanni  Its so sad as it would have been fantastic to find out where he ended up.
Thanks again for all your help. 

[JenB]

I am going to see if Dorothy may have gone on to have more we were not aware of.

There is a newspaper report of John George Playford's 1943 marriage, + a photo and the report states he was the only son of Mrs Dorothy Playford

James seems to have thought she had gone back to using her Maiden name?? He think this was incorrect.

She was certainly using her maiden name in 1939.

[elliesboys]

We have only just found out that Dorothy is buried with two other females. We have no idea who these are. 

[JenB]

Elliesboys, do you have a copy of James and Dorothy's marriage certificate? If so it would be useful if you would share all the details on it with the Battista researchers on this thread, particularly what the certificate says of James's father and who the witneses were?

Also, it would be good to know exactly what the Wellesley records say about your grandfather's visitors. Was Dorothy the only one?

[River Tyne Lass]

There is a Dorothy Playford who died on 10 September 1950 who is buried at Preston Cemetery, North Shields.  Is this your ancestor elliesboys?  If so, this record too, suggests she went back to using her maiden name.

If Dorothy was buried in a grave which wasn't purchased the grave might also contain strangers.

I have not come across a photo of James as yet.  However, Tyne and Wear Archives have very good photos x 2 of John George Battista, one of Orsolina/Lily, one of her husband Robert Guthrie.  Also the book 'Out if Italy' at Newcastle City library has a photo of James' uncle Vincenzo.  Also on the same page is a write up about Giovanni, Vincenzo and Antonio.

[elliesboys]

Yes that's my Dorothy. My Grandad did bury her a Playford. We think she went back to her maiden name maybe once she found out James was trying to remarry.

One of the females in the grave is named as Sarah Gibson. My Grandad did mention the surname Gibson, but my father cannot remember why?? I just wished we have pushed him more on his past.

[River Tyne Lass]

I take it your Grandfather may have passed on too? 

I agree with Jen that it might be useful and helpful if you could provide the information she has mentioned.

It is amazing sometimes how a little nugget of information which might appear seemingly irrelevant can lead onto finding out more.

[elliesboys]

Yes My Grandad has died
We knew he spent most of his life at the Wellesley but didn't really talk about it unless we pushed.
Once he met my Nana his life completely changed and we were and still are a very close family. I think he liked us all near as this was something he never had. I will get all the details off the wedding certificate as soon as my parents get home from shopping