Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[battista]

Some further information on Giovanni Battista and Elizabeth Lawson's marriage. I paid for 1-hour research from TW Archives, to search the marriage records of St. Mary's RC church Sunderland. 1870 - 1878. No record of marriage was found for Giovanni and Elizabeth. So, that rules out an earlier unregistered Catholic marriage.

However, there was a record found on FreeBMD for an Elizabeth Ellen Lawson married in Sunderland, 1873. To either a John Henry Ooughtred/Oughtred or John Morrow. March ¼ 1873 Sunderland 10A / 746.

I checked the Sunderland indexes, and there's an 1873 marriage to an Elizabeth Lawson and John Marrow (C026BK15/477), no record of a Lawson and Ooughtred/Oughtred marriage. So, it appears John Morrow/Marrow married an Elizabeth Ellen Lawson in 1873. If it's the same Elizabeth who later on married Giovanni, then she would've been 19 in her marriage to Morrow.

I couldn't find a death record of a John Marrow in Sunderland, between the dates of 1873-1878. The 1885 marriage of Giovanni and Elizabeth only names the husband as a widow, and Elizabeth as a spinster. I wonder if she did have a prior marriage. With Giovanni apparently already married at the time of Pasqualino's birth and potentially Elizabeth too, I suppose that does make a lot of sense as to why they didn't marry before the birth of their first three (or however many) children.

[River Tyne Lass]

http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1873&qtr=1&vol=10a&page=746&search=search

Hi battista,

This may be found to be totally incorrect but I am wondering if John Morrow may actually be Giovanni using an alias?

Perhaps he was already married in 1873 and waited until the death of his first wife, whoever she was, before he married Elizabeth under his real name.  When he married Elizabeth perhaps for the second time, it would have been true that she was a spinster, as the first time round marriage would have not been legal, being bigamous.

Looking on the Marriage Locator website the place of marriage is not exactly pin pointed.  However, I have sometimes found that when two marriages are shown it has taken place at one of them.  When I can next get to the archives I will check out St Peter to see if the marriage did place there, and if so what the details are.

[battista]

Hmm, I didn't even think to question whether John Morrow was an alias. There's been so many aliases in this thread of other relatives, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised if Giovanni himself used one. John is the anglicanised version of Giovanni, that's not really saying much though.

Maybe there's a newspaper article of the marriage, might be able to see whether this theory is supported or not. Might eventually end up ordering the certificate.

Although, married for 5 years before the birth of their first child. Isn't that pretty uncommon?

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi battista,

I have managed to squeeze in a visit to the archives to check this out.

Well, at least I can save you applying for the certificate.  This record doesn't look like it might be of relevance but I suppose it was worth a try.  I will post so you can see the details for yourself ..

Microfilm 570

Holy Trinity, Sunderland
Page 239
Entry 477
March 9 1873
John Morrow & Elizabeth Ellen Lawson
Both: 19
Bachelor & Spinster
Baker
His residence: Hartley Street
Her residence: Dunn's Passage
Fathers:
William Morrow - Labourer
Joseph Lawson - Waterman
Witnesses:
James Milburn - his mark
Mary Ann Milburn - her mark
By Banns

Elizabeth Ellen Lawson also signed with her mark.

She is 19 - but Father's name doesn't seem to fit with what you have already found out about her background. 

I wonder where this one came from - when I put Elizabeth E Lawson into freebmd I am only coming up with one birth for Sunderland - 1854.  I suppose this one might have been born elswhere.

[Love&Leaves]

Hello Everyone

So excited to check back in and see all this new activity! Not least a new cousin!!  Hi to elliesboys  - I'll PM you x

I think your find RTL, from the Guardians Minutes 1915 re Giovanni deserting the family is a brilliant piece of information to add to the puzzle.  I wish I had been able to get there during my visit.  Already thinking of when I can get back up!

Also, I had seen the entry in the Wellesey Book for a J. Cattista and I was definitely of the opinion this is James - just a typo for the surname rather than an alias.

But regarding alias' - this does seem to have been common practice for the Battista's. 

Firstly due to the language differences?  I would love to know if they came able to speak English or if they learned once here??  I do know that the brother Antonio's wife Christina who came over with him from Italy in 1891 couldn't speak a word of English... my Great Aunts remember this... they remember that she taught them lots of Italian words including Gabinetti which is Toilet 

Secondly, they obviously used alias' to cover up their misdemeanours! They would have all been surviving in a difficult world, Giovanni's children specifically given their sad circumstances, so would have had to do what was necessary I guess.

It is so amazing to have all of this information and help in discovering it - I firmly believe it will all unravel soon 

[battista]

Hi battista,

I have managed to squeeze in a visit to the archives to check this out.

Well, at least I can save you applying for the certificate.  This record doesn't look like it might be of relevance but I suppose it was worth a try.  I will post so you can see the details for yourself ..

Microfilm 570

Holy Trinity, Sunderland
Page 239
Entry 477
March 9 1873
John Morrow & Elizabeth Ellen Lawson
Both: 19
Bachelor & Spinster
Baker
His residence: Hartley Street
Her residence: Dunn's Passage
Fathers:
William Morrow - Labourer
Joseph Lawson - Waterman
Witnesses:
James Milburn - his mark
Mary Ann Milburn - her mark
By Banns

Elizabeth Ellen Lawson also signed with her mark.

She is 19 - but Father's name doesn't seem to fit with what you have already found out about her background. 

I wonder where this one came from - when I put Elizabeth E Lawson into freebmd I am only coming up with one birth for Sunderland - 1854.  I suppose this one might have been born elsewhere.

Well, at least we can rule that one out. Strange coincidence, although, I suppose all of those names are fairly common.

I have the birth certificate of Elizabeth Eleanor Lawson, born 1854 in Sunderland. Parents: Elizabeth Lawson (formerly Gray) and Thomas Lawson a Mariner.

[JenB]

Hi battista,

I have managed to squeeze in a visit to the archives to check this out.

Well, at least I can save you applying for the certificate. 

Well, at least we can rule that one out. Strange coincidence, although, I suppose all of those names are fairly common.

I have the birth certificate of Elizabeth Eleanor Lawson, born 1854 in Sunderland. Parents: Elizabeth Lawson (formerly Gray) and Thomas Lawson a Mariner.

Battista.

RTL has quite literally gone out of her way (yet again) to help you by finding this information.

A word of thanks from you would not have gone amiss!

[battista]

Battista.

RTL has quite literally gone out of her way (yet again) to help you by finding this information.

A word of thanks from you would not have gone amiss!

Yes, you're quite right. I didn't even see that RTL physically went to the archives, that was far too quick and it's far too late for reading here

Many thanks once again to @RTL for going to the archives to get information for Battista family members. At this point, I can't even remember how many times you've gone out to find a record of one of our family members. You've done it so many times  The longevity and depth of this thread is thanks to you. While the mystery of Giovanni's death has yet to be solved, I never thought this thread would uncover so much information about the rest of the family! This thread will be a treasure trove of information for many descendants who come across it in the future, there's already a few popping in already.

I want to say thanks to everyone else who has participated in this thread. I started to name everyone, but I fear I might miss folks. Some of you have also physically gone to graves and archives to uncover more information. Not to mention the helping hands from everyone who is much better at tracking down records online as well.

I am still focusing on Giovanni Battista, searching Italian records for clues as to whether he ever went back. So perhaps this thread may one day be resolved.

[battista]

Here are some images of birth, baptism and marriage records relevant to this thread:

Elizabeth E. Lawson Birth Certificate (probably shared this already) - https://i.imgur.com/kEkU0SP.png

Pasqualino Battista (Paschale Baptist) baptism at St Mary's RC Sunderland - https://i.imgur.com/z33aSrQ.png

Francis Spence + Orsolina Battista marriage - https://i.imgur.com/ykqmnvX.jpg

Francis Spence + Ann Fenton marriage - https://i.imgur.com/NPSOhyl.jpg

The Francis Spence marriages would be useful for anyone who is interested in comparing the signatures to determine whether they are, in fact, the same person. Those signatures do look very similar to me, especially the F, S and P. I'm certainly no expert though, would be interested to hear what other people think!