Author Topic: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]  (Read 76027 times)

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #522 on: Tuesday 10 December 19 10:53 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for checking the EC Jen  :)

I think its worth a try RTL - have just posted a request, hopefully on the right board! I agree we just need to link 'Thomas' to Lily to solve James' mystery.  Still hoping to get a reply from this new ancestry contact....
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #523 on: Tuesday 10 December 19 11:04 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I do hope there might be someone in Darlington who might do this look up.  This could really help to clinch things. 

By the way in post 486 I put 1880 for the year of Antonio's baptism but it was 1888 just to clarify. I know when I sent the info to you Sophie I wrote the correct year.   I saw the baptism entries in volumes originally.  I have since had time to look up the full entries now on microfilm at the library (St Peter, North Shields) - by the way looking more closely Father has name as Giovannio in one baptism.

Entry 450
October 17 1886
Elizabeth Ann
John & Elizabeth Battista
Steel's Quay, Clive Street
Musician

Entry 183
December 26 1888
Antonio
Giovannio & Elizabeth Ellen Battista
2 Lishman's Quay
Tailor
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Offline Tickettyboo

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #524 on: Tuesday 10 December 19 11:54 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for checking the EC Jen  :)

I think its worth a try RTL - have just posted a request, hopefully on the right board! I agree we just need to link 'Thomas' to Lily to solve James' mystery.  Still hoping to get a reply from this new ancestry contact....

Hi Sophie

I've just seen your post requesting a look up. It may help if you give a name and a date? People may not offer if they think you want them to look through the entire year. Its always best to give specific info.

If no offers are forthcoming it may be worth asking the library
https://www2.darlington.gov.uk/documents/20528/40284/Initial+information+sheet.pdf/78f5cdbe-0b75-4f22-88e9-705df98a8d2b

As you have a date of death it may come under the heading of a short search and, as such, there may not be a charge.

Boo

Offline JenB

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #525 on: Thursday 12 December 19 17:02 GMT (UK) »
I’m pleased to say that I’m pretty sure I’ve discovered what happened to Elizabeth Ann Battista  :D

The last definite sighting of her was admission to Tynemouth Workhouse 12th October 1912, together with a child ‘John’ aged 5 months, transferred from Bolton Union (see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6509263#msg6509263)

I discovered that the records for Fishpool Workhouse in Bolton are available on Family Search, so I scanned the birth register for 1912, and discovered a birth on 31st March 1912, mother’s name Elizabeth Lawson, child’s name Jack. Importantly, Lawson was the maiden surname of Elizabeth Battista’s mother, Elizabeth Ellen https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJS-QHXN?cat=375199

In 1917 a mysterious Elizabeth A. Moralee is listed among the blood relatives on Frank Spence’s military papers (see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6676382#msg6676382 )

I found an Elizabeth Moralee in the Electoral Registers, with a John T Moralee, in various parts of Newcastle pre-1939, and immediately post-1945 at 117 St Lawrence Square. An index address search of the 1939 register revealed three people called ‘Maralee’ living in one household at St Lawrence Square in 1939: John T,. Elizabeth and John H, the latter born 1912. The birthdate for John H exactly matches that for Jack ‘Lawson’. The birthdate for Elizabeth is 1883, which isn’t a match.

However, given John’s birthdate my feeling is that this family is Elizabeth (Battista) , husband John T Moralee and her son Jack (now John) Lawson now taking the name of possible stepfather John Moralee.

We know that the Battista family were Roman Catholics: Elizabeth Moralee's death was recorded at St Dominics Roman Catholic Church on 15th September 1949, address still 117 St Lawrence Square, age 59 (i.e. born 1890, again not a match for what we know). She was buried at All Saints Cemetery. There was a death notice in 1949 and an ‘In Memoriam’ in the E.C. the following year but these only mentioned husband John T Moralee.

The only mystery left, to my mind, is whether she was one of the two Elizabeths who married a John T Moralee in 1917. Did she marry as Jennings or Patterson using yet another alias? As the Elizabeth I found appears to have been Roman Catholic RTL has very kindly today looked at marriages at St Dominic’s and St Andrew’s Roman Catholic Churches but found nothing (St Mary’s online and no result). Maybe these Moralee marriages in 1917 were at the Register Office?

Thoughts welcomed, but I’m pretty convinced it’s the right woman.
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Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #526 on: Sunday 15 December 19 20:08 GMT (UK) »
First thought it WOW! Thats fantastic Jen - thank you! The wall is currently being broken down in great big chunks  :D

Second thought is I can't get over all these alias's!  But, as RTL as said before I think, it makes it incredibly, incredibly likely that Giovanni will have used one and died under one.

I agree that this has to be our Elizabeth!  Although her birth date on the 1939 Register is out by 3 years and the day is 8 days after her baptism ( 17th vs. 25th), the month of October is the same. And with her son John - the name and birth date - too many coincidences for it not to be her.

Would be great to find a definitive marriage with some other piece of matching info that would clinch it - thanks to RTL for checking out the parish records already  ;)

I'm going to put all this new info into my tree and see if Ancestry turns up anything else - fingers crossed.

This really is amazing!  :D
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #527 on: Sunday 15 December 19 22:53 GMT (UK) »
Thanks also to Boo for your suggestion - only just saw your message… I wasn't sure whether to wait for a reply before giving the details on the request thread  :-[
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #528 on: Sunday 15 December 19 23:01 GMT (UK) »
One final thing before I try and switch off lol… I was contacted today by one of Georgina Battista's great grandchildren!  Watch this space!
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #529 on: Monday 16 December 19 12:08 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I agree Sophie, this latest new development unravelled by Jen is quite amazing!  :D

Well done Jen on this great detective work!  :D I would be interested to know what the entry may have recorded when Elizabeth first went in to the workhouse.  I wonder if a next if kin may have been recorded and if this might have been Giovanni under an alias?

As there were two John T Moralees who married in 1917 I wonder if they were Father and son - one who married Elizabeth and perhaps his Father who might have remarried as a widower, perhaps?

So, Elizabeth went under her Mother's maiden name at least once and James used Lily's Mother's maiden name and in one newspaper report it was recorded he had used his Mother's name as an alias.   Vincent appears to have chosen his brother in law's name as his alias.  I wonder if Giovanni might have chosen a family connected name as an alias - it would certainly make it easier to remember. 

Sophie, as we don't know what name married under as yet - Patterson or Jenkins - just a long shot but do you know if either of these two names might have had a family connection? 

Last week I looked at the RC Churches and could not find a marriage for Elizabeth.  I also looked at a huge file containing the Byker Anglican marriages (as they have a recording as having lived at St Lawrence Square).  However, could not find a Byker area marriage either.  Of course, they could have married elsewhere in Newcastle at another Church or as has already been mentioned at a registry office.

On battista's first posts he reported Elizabeth was missing from the 1911 census - I now wonder if she might be hiding somewhere - perhaps Bolton - under her 'Lawson' alias?

Looking forward to watching this space, Sophie. :)  I guess we just never know when that all important clue might come forth which might lead to Giovanni!  :)
Conroy, Fitzpatrick, Watson, Miller, Davis/Davies, Brown, Senior, Dodds, Grieveson, Gamesby, Simpson, Rose, Gilboy, Malloy, Dalton, Young, Saint, Anderson, Allen, McKetterick, McCabe, Drummond, Parkinson, Armstrong, McCarroll, Innes, Marshall, Atkinson, Glendinning, Fenwick, Bonner

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #530 on: Tuesday 17 December 19 19:16 GMT (UK) »
Just another update from the Tynemouth workhouse volumes ..

Elizabeth A Battista with baby John returned to the workhouse on Friday Feb 7th 1913.  He is now under the name of John G Battista born 1912.  She is recorded as born 1888.  They are both under EC for religion.  Elizabeth was to have a 'Plain diet'.  They are admitted from the Tynemouth area.

They are both discharged on May 8th 1914.  Elizabeth is recorded as leaving on 'Own Desire' and 'John G' as taken out by Mother.

There is a gap of seven years in the volumes between 1914 until 1921.

James Battista re-enters the workhouse on Friday January 28 1921.  He is a 'Discharged soldier',  RC in religion and born 1899.  He was to have an 'Infirm Diet'.

James discharges himself the same day and it was recorded 'Refused to Stay'.

James re-enters the workhouse the very next day on 29 January 1921.  This time his birth year is 1900.  He is recorded as 'ex soldier', RC and he was to have an 'Infirm Diet'.

James discharges himself again the following year on Feb 27 1922 and it was recorded that this was under 'Own Desire'.

The next volume of workhouse admissions  is restricted access (only by staff) and not available for general viewing.
Conroy, Fitzpatrick, Watson, Miller, Davis/Davies, Brown, Senior, Dodds, Grieveson, Gamesby, Simpson, Rose, Gilboy, Malloy, Dalton, Young, Saint, Anderson, Allen, McKetterick, McCabe, Drummond, Parkinson, Armstrong, McCarroll, Innes, Marshall, Atkinson, Glendinning, Fenwick, Bonner