Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[Love&Leaves]

Interesting stuff RTL thank you... these workhouse volumes are fab, but its a shame there’s the gaps and some are unavailable... can either ever be made available?

I wonder what an ‘infirm diet’ was?

Notable that Elizabeth’s son was John G..... the 1939 register is transcribed as John W but I thought it looked more like a G.  Obviously also adds weight being a family name.

[River Tyne Lass]

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/life/food.shtml

I wondered about the 'infirm diet' too - would someone get more or less food on this?  However, the above link seems to suggest they got more.  Meat based meals, tea, and milk.  I daresay, James may have been in a bad way physically coming back from the war and might have needed building up.

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Sophie,

Just to clarify - it seems like there isn't a big gap in the workhouse records between 1914 and 1921 after all.

I have found some entries I made a good while back in an old note book about records which are held at the archives for Tynemouth admissions & discharges.  In my note book amongst my notes for the volumes I found this:

Ref: PU/TY/2/1/18
1 Jan 1914 - 31 Oct 1919

Ref: PU.TY/2/1/19
1 Nov 1919 - 10 May 1924

The other day when I was using the Poor law Union reference book I was obliged to share with another archive user who also wanted to use this.  I wonder if I accidentally looked at the wrong references page and that this is what made me think that there was a big gap?  However, fortunately as it turns out it appears that there is no big gap as I previously wrote there was.

[emmadog]

May I say what an interesting post this turned out to be. Came across it by chance but it has kept me enthralled for four days on and off. Couldn’t wait to pick up my phone again to check next posts. It’s amazing how you all 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Gradually come up with your answers (or maybe not answers just more puzzles) You could make a film out of this and I would still be captivated by the story. Thanks to all for letting me be part if only reading the posts.

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi emmadog,

I agree that the Battista story is such a fascinating one.  So much intrigue and often more puzzles than answers.

I think this would make a very good brickwall type documentary.  I would love for some 'experts' to come along on TV and finally be able to solve what did happen to Giovanni.  At the moment we can only speculate as to what really happened.  I wonder if something sinister might have been going on such as if Giovanni might have been in trouble with loan sharks and in fear of his life perhaps.  He might have had to create an alias/go into hiding and send his children to the workhouse for safety.  I do tend to less accept the idea that he deserted, somehow, even though this was recorded at the workhouse.  Do you have any theories so far?

I can almost hear Sophie saying 'LOL, RTL' perhaps at my mafia type speculation.  

Oh well, I am certainly looking forward what may be revealed in 2020.  Hopefully, all will be revealed eventually.

[emmadog]

I think it is the best post I have ever read. Took me long enough thouh, four days on and off.
As to your theory of loan sharks hmmmm. I would not be surprised at all. I seem to think there were "mafia type goings on" especially in Newcastle. I did work for an Italian family years ago and they were far from whiter than white. Must say lady of the family was very nice but others---- say no more! I do not think he deserted the family because at least he was kind enough to make sure they were cared for if only in the workhouse (not perfect but can imagine better than totally deserted at the time.)
I spoke to my cousin who has Italian relatives and he also says some strange goings on in the family. They also had ice cream vans!!!
I really hope the mystery gets unravelled (sooner the better as I don't think I can bear the suspense😂😂)
It has been interesting reading about the workhouse as my own grandad turned out to be born in Gateshead Workhouse which was a complete shock to all of us. Not really found out much more about him though.
Well, sorry for the tome, hope you have a good christmas and a very happy new year.
Barbara x

[barryd]

Durham Records Online has a few Battista names as below. For the full details go onto their site and pay for the full transcript of the names you want. It is very reasonably priced.

Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1911
Elizabeth Ellen
Battista
abt 1909
39 Hedworth Street
 
Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1912
Anthony
Battista
abt 1889

 
Marriages
Newcastle
1919
William Armstrong
Battista
abt 1896
90 Molineux Street
 
Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1943
Ruth
Battista
abt 1943

[Rena]

I wonder what an ‘infirm diet’ was?

I know what an "infirm diet" was when I was a youngster.   It was anything soft that would glide down the throat.  Would those infirm people have good teeth or no teeth to speak of?

A favourite to give children was hot milk poured over pieces of bread, with maybe a teaspoon of rum and a sprinkle of sugar to make the food palatable.  It was known as pappe/pap. I've seen my mother have this too when she had a cold and a sore throat.   I've heard "gruel" was given to invalids too.

"pap (plural paps)

    (uncountable) Food in the form of a soft paste, often a porridge, especially as given to very young children.

        Pap can be made from bread boiled in milk or water.

Origins unclear. Related to Middle Low German pappe, Dutch pap, Old French papa/pape, Latin pappa, Bulgarian папам (papam, “to eat”) and Serbo-Croatian папати/papati (“to eat”), among others. The relationships between these words are difficult to reconstruct. An (independent?) origin in imitative baby-talk, leading to constant reformation and renewal, is the best explanation in view of German Pappe (“pap, mush, porridge for children; sticky, mushy substance, paste, glue”), which fails to show the effects of the High German sound shift (no shifted form appears to be attested, making borrowing from Low German an unsatisfying explanation).

[Love&Leaves]

LOL RTL! Mafia! Anything is possible I suppose  . We have definitely wondered if there is a more sinister reason for Giovanni's disappearance... he was definitely the black sheep of the three Battista brothers.

Thanks for everyones continued interest - it really helps to have as much input as this.. its the reason we have come as far as we have with this.  Fab info about the infirm diet Rena thank you.  And appreciate your Durham Records look up Barryd - the Battista's are a huge family!  I know much of all those you mentioned 

I too am looking forward to what may revealed in 2020 - can't wait!!