Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Boo,

Absolutely no need to apologise - it is reasonable to think in most circumstances there would have been only one pension record ... Happy New Year, by the way!

Anyway, here the latest update ..

Tynemouth Workhouse Admissions May 13th 1914:

Battista, Eliz. Ann 
Domestic Servant age 27
RC Religion
with son Jack Battista age 2
Address 22 Church Street
Nearest Relative  : Brother John G Battista (?) Stairs, Little Bedford St. N. Shields
Jack's nearest relative: 'Mother in House'

Both left on Sept 8th 1914  at 9.30 am - both down as RC religion.

I can't see them thereafter in the workhouse registers right up to the cut up point when the public aren't permitted general viewing.

Also might this be John George's Isabella in the 'Maternity Register'?

Isabella Wilson
Age 32
Single
Presentation: R.O.P.
2nd pregnancy
Sister Young & Sister Whalley, Nursed by Sister William Under supervision of Dr Mairland
Date of Delivery 19.3.12  at 8.45 p.m.
Child's Name: James
5 lbs
1st stage (?) very rigid 56 hours  3rd stage & 20 minutes child had convulsion, died 102 hours after birth

Also, I have no idea if this person might possibly be Giovanni - possibly not by profession, religion and age (although age can sometimes be out.)  Name is not quite Battista either but similar.  I thought I would just mention it anyway as he had entered from the Newcastle Workhouse.  I think when someone transferred from one workhouse to another it might have been because they were going to what might have been considered their home area.   Anyway, just in case  here is the info  ..

John Baptist
Labourer
EC
Address 26 Carliol St.
Came from Newcastle Union
Entered Tynemouth Workhouse on Nov 24 1914 age 78
Dead April 11 1916  10.10 am age 80
Nearest Relative: Mrs (Rood?)  (Fellside?) Hexham

https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/carliol-street/

By the way, there is a George William Wilson in the Police Identification book also under the date of 8.4.1908.

There is also a Thomas Huscroft under the date of 6.7.1908

There is also a Thomas Robson - False Pretences 9.9.02  not sure if there is any connection.  I only got time to look at the reference book and didn't get time to actually look at that wonderful album again today.

[River Tyne Lass]

battista, perhaps you were right after all that Giovanni may have gone back to Italy!!   If the following record is true .. it looks as if Elizabeth might have told someone her Father was in Italy.

I have just found this record in the creed register of Newcastle Workhouse.

Reference: HO.NGH.88/2 

It looks like Elizabeth and son next went to the Newcastle Workhouse.  Son's date of birth seems to be a year out but I do think these are them.  I have kept to the spelling shown in the volume as it appears Battiste/Battista.

'All Saints
Date of Admission: 1.10.14
Battiste, Elizabeth  Year of birth 1887
Clothing No: 435
Relatives: Fa - Battista    Italy
Occupation: Single
Church of England
Battiste, John George   Year of birth 1911
Clothing No: 30
Relatives: Mo. in Hospital
Both: From whence admitted: Silver Street
Both discharged: 3.11.14

https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4080814072

https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/silver-street-medieval-newcastle/

[battista]

battista, perhaps you were right after all that Giovanni may have gone back to Italy!!   If the following record is true .. it looks as if Elizabeth might have told someone her Father was in Italy.

I have just found this record in the creed register of Newcastle Workhouse.

Reference: HO.NGH.88/2 

It looks like Elizabeth and son next went to the Newcastle Workhouse.  Son's date of birth seems to be a year out but I do think these are them.  I have kept to the spelling shown in the volume as it appears Battiste/Battista.

'All Saints
Date of Admission: 1.10.14
Battiste, Elizabeth  Year of birth 1887
Clothing No: 435
Relatives: Fa - Battista    Italy
Occupation: Single
Church of England
Battiste, John George   Year of birth 1911
Clothing No: 30
Relatives: Mo. in Hospital
Both: From whence admitted: Silver Street
Both discharged: 3.11.14

https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4080814072

https://co-curate.ncl.ac.uk/silver-street-medieval-newcastle/

Wow! Great work RTL  Thank you very much! I did not get any notifications from this thread, so had no idea there were all these new posts from Sep - now Brilliant work everyone, unfortunately, it's been so so long I have a hard time figuring out who all these people were...

It was a while ago now, but I believe when I checked his home town of Cassino's records, I was not able to find a death record there. Perhaps he lived in another town, it's worth a recheck as I'm not 100% sure I went through all the death records. There's a lot of Italian records continually becoming available online, so I do believe eventually it'll be trivial to access this info.

RE: Matthews family, I wrote a letter to all the family members I could find in April of last year, part of this letter is on Google Docs here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12mk_A3Emk6yr5EJKDpRRfZ_pYfJXUlFzhiDHxP41RWI/edit?usp=sharing

Known aliases of James Battista:

• Thomas G. Matthews
• Jacobus Battista
• George J Battista
• George J Matthews
• George Marshall

[Love&Leaves]

Hi Battista!  Glad you have caught up!!  Was going to email you  .  Have a look at my ancestry tree (via free guest account) if you get time as all documents etc are on there including some great photos and new cousins I've connected with from your branch through DNA.   I found Georgina's branch with some amazing photos. 

You are a star RTL - brilliant find.  These workhouse records are proving very helpful.  Definitely on to check on shipping records - never found anything from 1870s when Vincenzo and Giovanni would have come to UK, nor from 1890s when brother Antonio and family followed... but that was early days in recording immigration.... surely by the 1910s things would have gotten more comprehensive 

At very least that record gives a more concise date range... being noted as in Italy in 1914 but noted as deceased on son Vincent Battista alias Frank Spence service record in 1919 (completed by older sister Georgina when claiming his medals).

Also the record re John Baptist is very interesting - Giovanni and Vincenzo definitely had links to Carliol Street... I believe I have that address on a few records for various members of the family plus I think there was a well know Italian lodging house there.  Going to have a serious think about that one.

There is so much info and so many new leads to work through!  Its coming thick and fast now!  Can't thank you enough 

Also Boo - just to be clear - John George Battista had two 'wives'.  His lawful wife (Jane) Emma Anderson by whom he had Lily Anderson (John Samuel Anderson being Emma's uncle I think as I have them on 1911 census) and his 'unmarried wife'  Isabella Wilson by whom he had another child.. although we don't/didn't know whether it was a son or daughter or what became of them.  Assume the child did survive past infancy as the pension documents are from 1916/1917 I think.  Entirely possible that John George could have fathered two children with Isabella though 

[JenB]

I did not get any notifications from this thread, so had no idea there were all these new posts from Sep - now

Notifications don't always seem to work: by far the best and easiest way to check if you have any new replies on any thread to which you've contributed is to click on 'New Replies' top left of the Forum page (to the left of the 'Logout' button').

[River Tyne Lass]

You are very welcome!  This is a highly fascinating thread and I am very happy to try to help out with finding out what was going on and what might have happened to Giovanni.
With all the twists and turns, I suppose this may or may not have been true that Giovanni was in Italy but from the Newcastle entry it certainly looks as though this was indicated through what Elizabeth told someone when she and her son entered that workhouse.  Mind, if anything had happened to Elizabeth they would have had a job and a half to find this next of kin with just  Father as ‘Battista’ and Italy to go off.   I think it could be possible that he may have used an alias to go over .. which would complicate things.  (I know from reading the Tynemouth minutes volumes that they did make efforts to locate Fathers who were thought to have ‘deserted’ their family.  I do think I recall one instance where they managed to track a Father to Australia in order to get him to contribute.  However, I have seen in some cases parents seemed to have been deemed unsuitable and then complete Guardianship seems to have been taken over by the workhouse).

I think it will be very interesting to see what the Bolton Workhouse entry record may reveal.  I wonder if there might be any reference to her Father on there?

I have been able to pop into the North Shields library this morning and have looked up some burial records to see if any more info might be revealed.
Preston Cemetery
Entry 272
John Baptist
80 years
Labourer
Place of death: Workhouse
Burial Date: 11 April 1916
Buried Consecrated Ground 9411

The next time I can get to the Newcastle Library I will check just on the offchance he may have had a death notice or/and memoriam from anyone.  (Just in case there might be a Battista connection – with all the alias’ in this thread I think we need to be careful not to rule out anything with a hint of possibility.) 

Preston Cemetery
Entry 2085
James Wilson
Age: 1 Day (This is strange as the maternity register indicates he died when 102 hours old so he would have been more than one day old).
Place of death:  Workhouse
Burial 22 March 1912
Buried Unconsecrated Ground 6076a

As his place of death is given as the workhouse and not ’50 Preston Road’ which was the euphemism for the hospital, the next time I can get back to the archives I will check to see if Isabella Wilson might have sought admittance perhaps  as a workhouse inmate rather than a patient.  Possibly, I am thinking ... as perhaps a lot women had their children at home in those days so why did she go to the workhouse .. unless she was already admitted as an inmate?  Perhaps, there might be an address or something which might link her better (or not as the case might be) with John George.

Oh and regarding John George, I see I have accidentally missed off the word ‘Brother’ on Elizabeth’s entry in Tynemouth Workhouse on May 13th 1914.  I have now put this right.

As it happens my email notifications have also stopped working recently but I tend to follow Jen’s good advice these days (as I saw given somewhere else a good while back) about clicking on the replies button. 

I do hope one of the Matthews might eventually get in touch with you regarding your letter.  You and Sophie have put so much work into all this.   

[JenB]

Preston Cemetery
Entry 272
John Baptist
80 years
Labourer
Place of death: Workhouse
Burial Date: 11 April 1916
Buried Consecrated Ground 9411

This is probably the same chap in the workhouse in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMH-L2P
and in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS9S-61V

Possible baptism https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J78S-H7H
and 1841 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7W8-CXR

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks for this Jen.

I think all this likely rules out John Baptist out as being any connection to Giovanni.  At least it means one avenue doesn't need to be explored further.

[Love&Leaves]

Thanks also Jen.. your help is much appreciated.  I agree that does rule John Baptist out as our Giovanni is definitely in Tynemouth with his wife and children on 1901 census  . I wonder who he was though!

I'm currently trying to go through my tree and cross reference some of these addresses.. I think the Church Street address has to point to Isabella Fairbairn Wilson being John Georges Isabella.

Thanks for all the checks you are doing RTL... its filling in so many little blanks at lightening speed!  I hope I'm keeping pace!!

By the way, Happy New Year Everyone