Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

You are welcome Sophie! 

If you do send off for the Bolton admission next week .. just a reminder that in post 525 Jen discovered that Elizabeth 'Lawson' was in the Fishpool workhouse when she had son 'Jack Lawson'.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJS-QHXN?cat=375199

I don't know the area but I think this might have still been considered a part of Bolton. 

[JenB]

You are welcome Sophie! 

If you do send off for the Bolton admission next week .. just a reminder that in post 525 Jen discovered that Elizabeth 'Lawson' was in the Fishpool workhouse when she had son 'Jack Lawson'.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJS-QHXN?cat=375199

I don't know the area but I think this might have still been considered a part of Bolton. 

Fishpool was the name by which Bolton Union Workhouse was popularly known. It was built on a site called Fishpool Farm.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Bolton/

[Love&Leaves]

Ah yes!  Thanks for this Jen.. email sent off so fingers crossed 

[River Tyne Lass]

I don't know if this might be Elizabeth again in the Newcastle Workhouse.  (Although if so, age is out and no sign of son John/Jack.)  I thought it was worth rechecking further on in case anything else might be written about Giovanni.  Unfortunately, nothing on this Creed register entry:

'All Saints
Battiste, Elizabeth
Clothing No 184
Year born 1893
Religion: RC
Address of relatives:  This is crossed out 'Sis Mrs Rutherford 75 Matilda St'.  Above this crossed out entry is written 'None Known'
Occupation: S. None.
Place whence admitted: 195 Pilgrim Street.
Date Admitted: 18.10.16
Discharged: 17.11.16

I can't see a matching birth on Freebmd for an Elizabeth of this name.

I have checked the Tynemouth Creed registers too, however, although the Battistas are recorded these particular registers give very little information unlike the ones for Newcastle.

In the Tynemouth admissions I have found that Isabella Wilson was admitted on Monday 11 March 1912 at 7.10 pm.  Her nearest relative is listed as 'Father  28 Morpeth Ter. Percy Main.'   Son James was entered on day of birth and discharged when he went out for burial.  They were both recorded as Wesleyan.

I have also found that Emma Anderson was admitted to the workhouse on July 18th 1910.  Nearest relative 'Father 117 Church Way, North Shields'.  She was a Spinster and RC.  Records show that baby Lily was born on August 31st 1910 at 7 pm. She weighed 7 and a half pounds. It was Emma's first pregnancy.  Conducted by Miss Lord and attended by N. Williams, N. Comins and nursed by N. Williams and N. Whalley.

[JenB]

'All Saints
Battiste, Elizabeth
Clothing No 184
Year born 1893
Religion: RC
Address of relatives:  This is crossed out 'Sis Mrs Rutherford 75 Matilda St'.  Above this crossed out entry is written 'None Known'
Occupation: S. None.
Place whence admitted: 195 Pilgrim Street.
Date Admitted: 18.10.16
Discharged: 17.11.16

In 1911, according to enumerators summary book, 195 Pilgrim Street was a 'licensed lodgings' run by a Mrs Donnelly. At the time of the census there were 40 men and 20 women there.

[Love&Leaves]

Another great bit of information RTL... I have a few Elizabeth's on my tree for various branches but none really match.  Also no Rutherfords but as this is crossed out seems a likely error in the book.

I do have a great grand aunt Lizzie Battista born 1895 but I don't know of any of my branch that went into the workhouse... Lizzie and her three sisters all worked at Elswick Munitions during WW1 so don't think it would be her 

Amazing to see the details of Lily Anderson's birth - so her parents obviously wouldn't support Emma, having Lily out of wedlock (she married John George in July 1911).  The maternity records are fascinating.

[Love&Leaves]

Hi all its been a while!  Hope everyone is keeping safe 

My research has been continuing in fits and spurts and I have been taking some of this time in lockdown to go through my old papers and make sure I have everything uploaded to Ancestry.

There are various bits on a few branches of the Giovanni and his children's stories I am working on... but this in particular I thought I should add here as I think it gives weight to the current thinking on what happened to Great Great Uncle Giovanni....

This was email correspondence sent to my mother from one of her half second cousins... the lady Isobel was the granddaughter of my Great Great Grandmother Mary-Jane from her second marriage, so not a Battista.  However her father was brother to Vincenzo and Mary-Jane's children and she grew up close to her 5 half sisters and their families. 

She mentions that some of her 'cousins' had always said that Vincenzo (my GGGrandfather) had deserted Mary-Jane and the children and returned to Italy.  Obviously we direct descendants know this isn't the case and that he died at 47 and is buried in Elswick.  On re reading this, reflecting on it and in light of everything we now know (Isobel was writing in 2005) I think this is very strong evidence to suggest that the anecdote actually relates to Giovanni, Vincenzo's brother.  Giovanni would of course of have been deserting his second wife Anastasia... but did of course leave 9 children mostly in the workhouse

 

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Sophie,

That is very interesting.  Yes, I think I would draw the same conclusion as you that Isobel was really referring to Giovanni and not Vincenzo.

I think this supports what I found in the Tynemouth workhouse minutes book .. the recording under an entry for James Battista stating that his Father had deserted.  This also fits with the Newcastle workhouse creed  register entry for Elizabeth which records that her Father was in Italy.

So hopefully, battista might be able to find a death entry in the Italian records one day.  I just hope there doesn't turn out to be a complication such as Giovanni using an alias too.

This is not the only mystery to have emerged on this thread ...

I have been thinking about the intriguing Vincent/Frank Spence alias.  Just a thought but I wonder if it might have been the real Frank (Lily's husband) who was killed in the Great War and if Vincent took over his identity with the collusion of Lily and Georgina.  Georgina seems to have claimed him as her deceased brother, having his name inserted in between the Frank Spence name.  Lily put no notices in the paper for either husband Frank or Vincent yet she did for brother John George.  I do wonder if the Frank who got married in Newcastle might have been Vincent using an alias to live out his life under a different identity as brother James did.

[Love&Leaves]

Interesting thought RTL... thought I'd have another dig on this and have just found Francis Spence (who married Ann Fenton) service record on Ancestry!   I have saved it on my tree if you want to take a look.  Just going through and trying to write up all the dates to see if anything fits..... marriage to Ann is on there but the first thing Ive noticed is his birth date is out by quite a few years.  Looks like he signed up oil 1896 aged 19 but on his marriage to Ann in 1910 he is noted as 28 yrs    Definitely the same guy that we have this picture of....