Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[Love&Leaves]

Brilliant JenB, totally agree. Good to be narrowing things down.  I had looked through all those documents but was distracted trying to find something that proved that Elizabeth Moralee was in fact Elizabeth Battista... I've still nothing conclusive.

Carliol Street, Carliol Square and Trafalgar Street (all in close proximity) was well known as an area of Newcastle Italian immigrants populated.  There were many boarding houses run by 'Padrones':-
1.an employer, especially one who exploits immigrant workers.
2.(in Italy) the proprietor of a hotel.

These addresses do indeed pop up often on my ancestors early UK documents.  There is much about it in the book "Out of Italy" which I think is referenced earlier on this thread.  The book features a fab photo of my 2xGt Grandfather Vincenzo, Giovanni's brother.

RTL found this super photo... actual shows a boarding house, note the BEDS sign in the window
https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4080310431

[River Tyne Lass]

This is a very long post now, but if you look back to Jen's post 525 page 59 I can't help believing that this is really Elizabeth Battista.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304

It does make you wonder, as Jen mentioned, if Elizabeth married under alias of Patterson or Jennings in 1917.
It seems too much coincidence that her son's birth date in 1939 matches that of Elizabeth Lawson's son in the Fishpool workhouse.

As you can see it seems that when Elizabeth has been transferred from Bolton to Tynemouth workhouse she seems to drop the Lawson alias (which happens to be her Mother's maiden name) and both are named Battista again.  Perhaps she was familiar to the staff at Tynemouth and she might not have been able to carry on with the alias there?  She seems to have given her Father's name as alias 'William' and he is a tailor (which would fit for Giovanni.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6509263#msg6509263

[JenB]

Brilliant JenB, totally agree. Good to be narrowing things down.  I had looked through all those documents but was distracted trying to find something that proved that Elizabeth Moralee was in fact Elizabeth Battista... I've still nothing conclusive.

I thought you had agreed that this was her in my long posting here (as RTL has also said)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304
and your reply # 526

I agree that this has to be our Elizabeth!  Although her birth date on the 1939 Register is out by 3 years and the day is 8 days after her baptism ( 17th vs. 25th), the month of October is the same. And with her son John - the name and birth date - too many coincidences for it not to be her.

[Love&Leaves]

Thanks Jen - I do hope it is my Elizabeth and as said in that old post there are many coincidences (as well as discrepancies as I also pointed out) but without a firm marriage there is still nothing conclusive.  I am not convinced about the use of Jennings or Patterson as alias's as those names do not appear anyway else in the Battista story.  All the other alias's I have come across for Giovanni, Vincent & James as well as Pasqualino and his first wife Marieta are variations of their own names or family names.  I suppose the only way to find out is to look at the marriage certificates for both Elizabeth Patterson and Elizabeth Jennings.

[Love&Leaves]

This is a very long post now, but if you look back to Jen's post 525 page 59 I can't help believing that this is really Elizabeth Battista.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304

It does make you wonder, as Jen mentioned, if Elizabeth married under alias of Patterson or Jennings in 1917.
It seems too much coincidence that her son's birth date in 1939 matches that of Elizabeth Lawson's son in the Fishpool workhouse.

As you can see it seems that when Elizabeth has been transferred from Bolton to Tynemouth workhouse she seems to drop the Lawson alias (which happens to be her Mother's maiden name) and both are named Battista again.  Perhaps she was familiar to the staff at Tynemouth and she might not have been able to carry on with the alias there?  She seems to have given her Father's name as alias 'William' and he is a tailor (which would fit for Giovanni.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6509263#msg6509263

I agree it is a coincidence that the sons birth date in 1939 matches Elizabeth Lawson's son but it is still a coincidence in amongst many other discrepancies.

Also that is a good example of the type of alias's she was using.. Lawson being her mothers maiden name (her first name being Elizabeth too) and Giovanni using William which was one of his sons and also one of his grandfathers (Guillermo).  I don't know why she would just pluck a random name out of the air... that being said maybe it will come to light that it was perhaps one of Moralee's family names 

[JenB]

Fair enough…..I’m happy with my theory.

If neither of the marriages are her then I’d suggest that she lived with John T. and took his surname.

[Love&Leaves]

Found another John Moralee & Elizabeth marriage.. surname Hewitt July 1916 Tynemouth.  Found them on 1939 Census.... with daughter Catherine and a birth date of Jan 1918.  Found her birth record incorrectly transcribed which shows mothers maiden name of Hewitt.  Looking at the dates on the 1921 census (as well as address of 100 West Percy Street) and the 1939 for Elizabeth's birth, I think that this discounts them as our Elizabeth and also the child Catherine.

[Love&Leaves]

Re the Elizabeth & John at Robin Hood Yard... found two sets on the 1921 census, the elder and the younger living at the same address.  The birth year for the younger Elizabeth fits.  There is no child however.  Elizabeth's son was born in Fishpool 1912 so would have been 9 yrs old in 1921.  He is on the 1939 register though (with birth date matching Elizabeths son) and both Elizabeth and Johns birth months and years there match the 1921 census dates so I think they are one and the same.

However, I also have electoral rolls for all of the above at the same address from 1918 through to 1930.  Slight discrepancy in that on brother Vincents service record in 1919 E.Moralee notes her address as City Road, Newcastle.  But this Elizabeth was at Robin Hood Yard in 1918 and beyond.

There is a Richard Moralee living at City Road on the 1921.....

Will try and find the third John & Elizabeth Moralee then see if I can't work out which was Patterson and which was Jennings.  Hopefully the certificates will have something on them 

[Love&Leaves]

Something very promising on concluding Elizabeth's marriage to Moralee... started looking into the Patterson alias and I found an Isabella P Moralee who married a Robert Patterson in Q1 1915 in Tynemouth.

I found Isabella on the 1891 and 1901 census b.1895 with wait for it, a brother John... b. 1893 which matches with our John T Moralee's dob on the 1921 and 1939 

Isabella would have been a similar age to Elizabeth and maybe they were friends as well as sister in laws 

The only major birth date anomaly for John is the 1939 where its down as Dec 1884.  Month matches but year is obviously 9 years out.  I have cross referenced all dates from 1901,1911,1921 & 1939 and any other documents I have so this is an oddball.  Only thing I can think is she completed it and couldn't remember the year so just put him as one year older than her!

In 1901 John & sister Isabella are living with their mother Catherine and step family, the Southwicks.  I looked for a Catherine marrying a Moralee and found Catherine Limb married a Richard Moralee b.1855 in Apr 1892 All Saints.

So this Richard sort of matches the Richard Moralee I have living on the City Road in 1918 onward! (birth year is out by 6 years). He would therefore be Elizabeth's father in law, matching with the address she gave on brother Vincent's service record.

Catherine married Richard in 1892, John was born 1893 & Isabella 1895 (then two other children).. she must have left Richard as there is a marriage for a Catherine Moralee to James Southwick in Oct 1899 in Tynemouth and she is Catherine Southwick on the 1901 census with children Moralee.

Richard goes on to marry Isabella Sibbitt in Apr 1900, whom he is living with on the City Road in 1911.  In fact they are living the Keelman's Hospital and are still resident on the 1939 register where he is noted as a blind pensioner. 

The only other thing is who are John Thomas Moralee Sr and wife Elizabeth at Robins Hood Yard?? Perhaps an uncle and aunt???

So in conclusion, I have ordered the Moralee/Patterson certificate!! Fingers crossed there's a Battista reference on there so I can sleep easy