Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[JenB]

The only other thing is who are John Thomas Moralee Sr and wife Elizabeth at Robins Hood Yard??

I think we are following two different families now.

John T Moralee senior at Robins Hood Yard in 1922, born Whalton Northumberland c.1850. Also living there is another John T Moralee, born Jarrow with an Elizabeth born North Shields (who I believe may well be Elizabeth Battista)

The same John T. senior, born Whalton, can also be found at Robin Hoods Yard in 1911 with son John T born Jarrow.

So my reading is that John T Moralee senior is the father of John T junior who is with Elizabeth (possibly Battista) in 1921 (as I said in my earlier posting).

[JenB]

In 1901 John & sister Isabella are living with their mother Catherine and step family, the Southwicks

They are also living with James Southwick in North Shields in 1911. John is born North Shields.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMN-7HP

So this John cannot be the same one as in Robin Hood Yard 1911 and 1921 (who was born in Jarrow).

It will be interesting to hear what the marriage certificate reveals.

[Love&Leaves]

Hmmmmmm good point Jen...

Another I've just thought of is that Elizabeth Patterson and John Moralee didn't marry until 1917 so its more likely that the John Moralee born North Shields to mother Catherine is the right one as he is alone in 1911...

Elizabeth was likely in the workhouse, very possibly out of Newcastle.  She was taken out of Tynemouth Union in 1904 by W.Brabant (possible Giovanni alias) and then we don't know what became of her until she was transferred from Fishpool Workhouse Bolton in Oct 1912 with baby son John as Elizabeth Battista.

So maybe the Robins Hood Yard Moralees are a red herring??

Interestingly on the 1911 entry for Robins Hood Yard there is a John Thomas Moralee son but the father write 'none' the column for children born alive - very curious!!!

[Love&Leaves]

Also mother on that census return is Mary Jane but Elizabeth everywhere else 

[JenB]

Interestingly on the 1911 entry for Robins Hood Yard there is a John Thomas Moralee son but the father write 'none' the column for children born alive - very curious!!!

Also mother on that census return is Mary Jane but Elizabeth everywhere else 

Actually it doesn't say she's the mother. It says she's John T senior's wife.

It doesn't say that John T senior has no children. If you read the column heading it says 'number of children born alive to the present marriage' (and should have been written against the woman's name anyway!).

John T junior was born to a previous marriage. John T senior had other children from other marriages.

So maybe the Robins Hood Yard Moralees are a red herring??

Having spent a lot of time on this I don't think they are a red herring.

so its more likely that the John Moralee born North Shields to mother Catherine is the right one as he is alone in 1911...

No, I don't agree. If you follow this John forward you'll find that almost certainly he married Elizabeth Hewitt in Tynemouth RD 1916, and they are still living in Tynemouth RD in 1921, together with their daughter Catherine, born there in 1918. The three of them are still together in Morpeth in 1939. John's occupation in 1939 is 'Assistant Foreman Engineering' - he is an apprentice engineer in 1911.

I'm going to try to leave this now, but will be interested to see what the marriage certificate brings.

Please re-read
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg7273060#msg7273060

[Love&Leaves]

Jen I do not wish to take up anyones valuable time or energy.  I certainly have never asked for you or anyone else on this thread to contribute to my family research, I thought any interest and time was given willingly and I have always tried to be appreciative for what has been given.

I am not overlooking or disagreeing with any previous research, I am going through everything again, reviewing & reflecting, looking for things maybe not picked up on before as there is nothing definitive and that is what I'd like to find.  Triggered by the 1921 census providing a little bit more information.

And with all these John & Elizabeth Moralee's it is certainly confusing, for me at least 

[River Tyne Lass]

I think interest and time is willingly given. 
Since I have been on RootsChat, I must say that this is the thread that I have found the most fascinating but also the most puzzling to solve.
I agree that you have been appreciative of help given, and I think it is marvellous too how you are trying your best to get all this unravelled.
I'll admit that things are often bamboozling  for me too working on this complicated story.  You are certainly not alone in that!
I am glad we have had people like Jen, someone I consider at the top of the field, working onboard with this too.
Hopefully, we will get there in the end and it is appreciated that you have sent off for the cert.  Like Jen, I am very interested in hearing about what this may record about the bride's Father and any witnesses.  It would be great if there was something on there to support that this is Elizabeth Battista and give a clue in reference to Giovanni.

[Rosinish]

Nov. 5th 1909
Batista William
age 12
Was discharged at 7 a.m.
He had been admitted from Tynemouth
Religion: RC
Remarks: To Industrial Ship "Southampton" at Hull.

Possibility of surviving records here...

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/TSSouthampton/

Annie

[River Tyne Lass]

Still not much further on with finding Giovanni.  However, for Battista descendants here is an article from the Shields Daily News 8 July 1937 re James Battista (Dorothy giving evidence).