Searching for Thomas Brown birth Toxteth 1899

[Annette7]

I'm thinking that 1899 certificate you have is the right one although mothers maiden name is Owens and birthdate 20 days out.   The next child born (as shown on census) is Rose Ann and GRO shows, as expected, mmn Edwards. 

Found 'your' Thomas' baptism on Ancestry:

Thomas Brown b.23/5/1899, bp.4/6/1899 Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Liverpool, son of Joannis (John) and Alicia (Alice) mmn Owens - address 44 Essex Street.

plus that of Rose Ann:

Rosa Anna b.27/5/1901, bp.17/1/1901 (although January is written in Latin this is clearly an error and should read June like all the other entries on the page), dau. of Joannis and Alicia mmn Owens - address 45 Essex Street.

So Rose Ann birth shows mmn Edwards, but her baptism shows mmn as Owens.

Thomas' baptism has been added to when he married as written in tiny writing at bottom of baptismal entry it states he married Annie Barrett 24/6/1921 St. Peters, witnesses Michael Barrett and Maria Edwards.   No doubt added by a priest when Thomas married.

I can't explain the anomaly with Edwards/Owens but clearly these 2 are brother and sister and are indeed the children of John A. Brown and Alice Maude Edwards.

Likewise I can't explain why on the 1901 census found already (which is indeed your family) father John is showing as 'Thomas'.  Address is 45 Essex Street (where they lived when Rose Ann baptised).

So, both Thomas' birth and baptism show his mother as nee Owens and Rose's birth shows mmn Edwards but baptism shows Owens!!

Annette

[Joed99]

The Thomas Brown birth I am searching for indeed married Annie Barret his marriage lines are as follows

St Peters Seel St (Roman Catholic)

21/6/1921 Thomas Brown 22yrs Hawker 14 Court 3 House Parr St L/pool John Brown Labourer
                Annie Barrett 19yrs Bottling Stores Hand Duke Terr L/pool James Barrett Boiler Scaler

Witnesses Michael Barrett and Mary Agnes Edwards

On the 1899 birth cert for Thomas Brown the father is a John Brown Dock Labourer mother Alice Owens.

The other John Alexander = Alice Edwards was also a Dock Labourer according to  1911 census!

Does anyone know if Roman Catholic baptism records exist as they might give a clue to solving this.

Regards

John

         

[Dundee]

That is what Annette posted - the details from the RC baptisms.

Found 'your' Thomas' baptism on Ancestry:

Thomas Brown b.23/5/1899, bp.4/6/1899 Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, Liverpool, son of Joannis (John) and Alicia (Alice) mmn Owens - address 44 Essex Street.

plus that of Rose Ann:

Rosa Anna b.27/5/1901, bp.17/1/1901 (although January is written in Latin this is clearly an error and should read June like all the other entries on the page), dau. of Joannis and Alicia mmn Owens - address 45 Essex Street.

So Rose Ann birth shows mmn Edwards, but her baptism shows mmn as Owens.

Thomas' baptism has been added to when he married as written in tiny writing at bottom of baptismal entry it states he married Annie Barrett 24/6/1921 St. Peters, witnesses Michael Barrett and Maria Edwards.   No doubt added by a priest when Thomas married.

Annette

Debra 

[Annette7]

John, I really thought I'd explained exactly what has happened here but you don't appear to be grasping it.

As confirmed by you, 'your' Thomas Brown married Annie Barrett in 1921.

I already gave you his RC baptism details in 1899 at Our Lady of St. Carmel, Liverpool stating his mmn was Owens (as was his birth entry), also that of his sister Rosa Anna (we know from census she was his sister) born in 1901 (her birth entry shows mmn Edwards but her baptism shows Owens, like Thomas'.

Thomas' 1899 baptism entry (you can view on Ancestry) has been added to by a priest stating he married Annie Barrett in 1921.

There are not 2 John Browns, Dock Labourers, with wives named Alice, in Toxteth/Liverpool - only your couple and their family which includes Thomas and Rose Ann.

All their children births show mmn  Edwards EXCEPT for Thomas showing mmn Owens for some reason, plus when Rose Ann (Rosa Anna) baptised 2 years later her mmn is given as Owens.

As I stated before, I can't explain why mmn was given on both Thomas birth entry and baptism as Owens, and on Rose Ann's baptism also given as Owens (when her birth entry is Edwards).  I would suggest looking further in Alice  Maude Edwards background - the name Owens must figure there somewhere for it to have been used with 2 of their children.

I really don't know what else I can say or do to make you understand especially having given you his RC baptism where a priest has noted that he married Annie Barrett 1921.

Annette

[garstonite]

I am a little confused - I don't know if this is any help
www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk
RC Baptisms
1894
Alice Ann Brown - father John - mother Alice Edwards

1894-6859 ST VINCENT DE PAUL 282-SVP-1-4 (218) 1894 1894 ALICE ANN BROWN JOHN  ALICE EDWARDS
whether the church of St Vincent De Paul helps in any way ??    you can buy this certificate for £3 - click on REQUEST FORM
 

[Joed99]

Many many thanks for all your help and advice, I posted in haste earlier, and fully understood what you had found what I meant to say was that the solution to this lies in the R.C. records.

Family lore indicated that there was some religious indifference perhaps this is why Thomas was Baptisted on his wedding to Annie Barrett. I will now concentrate my efforts on Edwards connection.

Regards

John

[Blue70]

I am a little confused - I don't know if this is any help
www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk
RC Baptisms
1894
Alice Ann Brown - father John - mother Alice Edwards

1894-6859 ST VINCENT DE PAUL 282-SVP-1-4 (218) 1894 1894 ALICE ANN BROWN JOHN  ALICE EDWARDS
whether the church of St Vincent De Paul helps in any way ??    you can buy this certificate for £3 - click on REQUEST FORM
 

Ancestry has the Liverpool RC record images online stick with them. The old LHP website is alright to use as a reference but no one should now be recommending buying from the site as it's no longer necessary. People who try to contact LHP don't get a response these days.


Blue

[garstonite]

Thanks for that Blue - I wasn't aware they no longer answer Request Form queries ...

[Blue70]

Quite frustrating for me as they had an RC marriage from Lydiate for relatives of my cousin. LHP had gone beyond Liverpool city boundary and covered some non Liverpool RC churches that are not on Ancestry. I used LHP in the early days they were very helpful but they don't respond these days and they haven't added to their databases.


Blue