Joseph and Thomas Love, were they brothers?

[majm]

Never look at them either, mostly copied from others without sources.

So Solidrock, from your opening post  where did you source the following ...   
 

Joseph and Thomas Love were convicts sent to Tasmania in 1836 on the ship Henry Porcher. Joseph was convicted of stealing oranges at Essex Quarter Session  and Thomas for stealing a watch at Essex Quarter Session they both got 7 years.  On his release Thomas married Margaret Sinclair and they stayed in Tasmania . Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania or not but he did go back to England and this maybe him on the 1851 census in  Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107  Piece/Folio 1784 / 216.  Pretty sure it's him on the 1871 census St Giles, Essex with a different wife Mary Ann, they married 1857, Halstead,  Volume 4A  Page 562.
It is thought that they were both born in Ireland but Joseph lived in Halstead and Thomas lived in Coggleshall when they were convicted, Joseph was a saddle maker and Thomas a silk weaver.
Looking for their births and if they were brothers also if Joseph married Elizabeth in Tasmania or England.  Thank you.

JM

[solidrock]

Never look at them either, mostly copied from others without sources.

So Solidrock, from your opening post  where did you source the following ...   
 

Joseph and Thomas Love were convicts sent to Tasmania in 1836 on the ship Henry Porcher. Joseph was convicted of stealing oranges at Essex Quarter Session  and Thomas for stealing a watch at Essex Quarter Session they both got 7 years.  On his release Thomas married Margaret Sinclair and they stayed in Tasmania . Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania or not but he did go back to England and this maybe him on the 1851 census in  Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107  Piece/Folio 1784 / 216.  Pretty sure it's him on the 1871 census St Giles, Essex with a different wife Mary Ann, they married 1857, Halstead,  Volume 4A  Page 562.
It is thought that they were both born in Ireland but Joseph lived in Halstead and Thomas lived in Coggleshall when they were convicted, Joseph was a saddle maker and Thomas a silk weaver.
Looking for their births and if they were brothers also if Joseph married Elizabeth in Tasmania or England.  Thank you.

JM

The info I originally got was from the person that I am trying to help, I don't know her personally but her family name is Love. She know all about Joseph's life of crime in England and all the facts about Thomas in Tas. check out. I'm not sure if the Joseph in 1851 is the same as the 1871 the only common factor is that he is a saddle maker. She says Joseph moved to Colchester long after he married so I read that as he married in Tas. There seems to be no record for that on Linc. or in England and no obvious birth or death for Elizabeth, perhaps they were not married.
I'm waiting for the person to get back to me hopefully with more info.

[mckha489]

You have to admit it’s very tempting as the one in the 1851/61/71 censuses gives a completely different place of birth each time. Which sort of fits with someone who had 23 convictions before being deported BUT you would expect that pattern to continue surely, and he was in trouble in Australia, but I don’t see any sign of misbehaviour post 1851.
Incidentally no sign of 1851 Elizabeth’s death.

We need that marriage cert of Joseph and Mary Ann Norman,

Is there a convict story in the family I wonder?

Where did you find the 1861 census for Joseph?

Sorry, I realise I hadn't.  But found his wife and 2 children  Household schedule number:   86
Piece:   1110
Folio:   150
Page Number:   16

Mary age 21, Emily age 2 and Nehemia age 2/12  in Halstead all 3 born Halstead.

[majm]

1861 ... perhaps Joseph would be a boarder, aged 38,     a saddler, at Bury St Edmunds   

add https://ukcensusonline.com/census/1861/


JM

[solidrock]

1861 ... perhaps Joseph would be a boarder, aged 38,     a saddler, at Bury St Edmunds   

add https://ukcensusonline.com/census/1861/


JM

That looks good.

[mckha489]

1861 ... perhaps Joseph would be a boarder, aged 38,     a saddler, at Bury St Edmunds   

add https://ukcensusonline.com/census/1861/


JM

but age is 10 yrs + out

[majm]

.....
The info I originally got was from the person that I am trying to help, I don't know her personally but her family name is Love. She know all about Joseph's life of crime in England and all the facts about Thomas in Tas. check out. I'm not sure if the Joseph in 1851 is the same as the 1871 the only common factor is that he is a saddle maker. She says Joseph moved to Colchester long after he married so I read that as he married in Tas. There seems to be no record for that on Linc. or in England and no obvious birth or death for Elizabeth, perhaps they were not married.
I'm waiting for the person to get back to me hopefully with more info.

Well the sourced info we have collected and posted on the thread re the two lads transported to VDL in 1836 - found in a matter of hours - is likely to have very little to do with the chap who died in 1883, in England.

There's every chance that Joseph simply changed his name after 1849 and became one of those who rushed to the nearby colony of Victoria suffering gold fever  ... far ...far more people came after convictism ceased ...

JM 

[Rosinish]

"When Joseph Love was born in 1813 in Londonderry, Londonderry, his father, John, was 1. He married Mary Ann Norman in Halstead, Essex. They had 13 children in 36 years. He died in 1883 at the age of 70."

"I say no more, the tree owner has a Bachelor Degree ... errr ... in what ...  I definitely say no more."

JM

A 'Bachelor'...On his own...in thinking that's logical  ...You get them sadly

Annie

[majm]

       ohhhhhhhhhh  Annie    

Convicts continued to be sent to Tasmania until 1853, and thus captains/masters of ships departing from Tasmanian ports needed to ensure their passengers were not still under a sentence, and the penal administration’s regulations were in place to check this.   

Joseph LOVE, per the Henry Porcher of 1836 was recorded in the December 1849 Muster as still holding his Ticket of Leave, so he had not yet been issued with a Certificate of Freedom, nor was he recorded there as Free by Servitude. 

Thomas LOVE’s departure to Port Phillip (that's a sea voyage across Bass Strait from one colony to another, ie from VDL to what became the colony of Victoria in 1851)  is recorded and that list has F.S. and his ship of arrival as Henry Porcher.   

Earlier on this thread I noted that I had been searching for Joseph’s CF but had not found it.   I now add to that note: 

 I have not found any sighting to suggest that Joseph LOVE, per the Henry Porcher of 1836, noted on convict arrival papers as a Black and Shoeing Smith (not as a saddler, not as a farrier) ever departed Tasmania (Van Diemens Land) during the times that the ships captains/masters were reporting to the VDL authorities on the passengers seeking to depart VDL…   

I did not look at variations in indexes for alternatives to LOVE due perhaps to long-hand scribble … eg LORE, SORE, SORT FORE, FORT, TORE, TARE, FARE, …

JM