Joseph and Thomas Love, were they brothers?

[Rosinish]

      ohhhhhhhhhh  Annie    

Earlier on this thread I noted that I had been searching for Joseph’s CF but had not found it.   I now add to that note: 

 I have not found any sighting to suggest that Joseph LOVE, per the Henry Porcher of 1836, noted on convict arrival papers as a Black and Shoeing Smith (not as a saddler, not as a farrier) ever departed Tasmania (Van Diemens Land) during the times that the ships captains/masters were reporting to the VDL authorities on the passengers seeking to depart VDL…   

JM       

Well JM...what more could you say, glad it made you smile as some things we encounter are enough to make one give up our addiction with such ludicrous suggestions (put across as 'fact') 

Annie

[solidrock]

Update, just herd from the person I am trying to help, she says....

 "Joseph did straighten himself out when he returned to England and became a saddle maker. On Joseph marr.cert. his father was still alive at the time JOHN LOVE. Joseph received 12 yrs in the colony as he had already been in prison in England."

Looks like he may have not been a saddle maker when he was transported.
I have found 11 children for Joseph and Mary Ann being born in various places, Halstead, Bury St. Edmunds, Colchester and Peterborough.  There is also a mystery Lolah Love born 1850, Halstead Union, mmn Newton. No trace of the said Elizabeth in the 1851

[majm]

Joseph was clearly still in Van Diemens Land in December 1849, and clearly not yet emancipated - He only had a Ticket of Leave noted on that Muster.   He had some colonial sentences recorded on his sheet, which would extend his sentence.  He needed a Certificate of Freedom before he could leave VDL.   Simply put, the dots are not joining up between Joseph the 22 year old Blacksmith from Portsmouth on the Henry Porcher in 1836, and the Joseph William LOVE mentioned by  Mckha489 here: 

At the marriage of Nehemiah Love (son of Joseph the saddler and Mary Ann) in 1896 he says his father was Joseph William LOVE

Yorkshire marriage so image is online

Does your contact have any of the UK marriage certs that JJ noted, if so, what info is there about Joseph and his father:

His convict records shows that he was in stife in 1846 and this may be the account on Trove:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65943624

Assuming he returned to England and was on the 1851 census as married, there are only two possible marriages showing on FreeBMD:

Dec 1849 Wolverhampton 17 488    
Love Joseph

Sep 1851 Stepney 2 558   
Love Joseph

Second marriage, maybe:

Dec 1857 Halstead 4a   562   
Love Joseph   
Norman Mary Ann        

Jamjar

JM
 

[majm]

There's quite a number of chaps named as Joseph LOVE in the mid 1800s in New South Wales, which of course included all of Victoria and all of Queensland until they were hived off (Victoria in 1851 and Queensland in 1859).   

Here's one I have spotted on the NSW Archives index for Deposition Registers ...
Joseph LOVE, alleged offence HORSE STEALING,  committed for trial Wagga 14 December 1865...
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/criminal-depositions-deposition-books-index

JM

[mckha489]

1851 Stepney

JOSEPH LOVE married one of these people
Margaret Hollis, Frances Flagg, Maria Griffiths, Caroline Newman

1849 Wolverhampton

   
JOSEPH LOVE married one of these people
Sarah Stimpson, Mary Kirkham, Ann Lucas

[Jamjar]

“Joseph did straighten himself out when he returned to England and became a saddle maker. On Joseph marr.cert. his father was still alive at the time JOHN LOVE. Joseph received 12 yrs in the colony as he had already been in prison in England."

How do folk come up with this sort of thing?

Where is the documented evidence that he received 12 years, and returned to UK, please?

Jamjar

[mckha489]

Forgetting all about the convict for a moment...what is ALL the information on the known (well I’m assuming that part at least is proven) ancestor Joseph LOVE who married Mary Ann NORMAN’s marriage certificate? Including witnesses

[majm]

Forgetting all about the convict for a moment...what is ALL the information on the known (well I’m assuming that part at least is proven) ancestor Joseph LOVE who married Mary Ann NORMAN’s marriage certificate? Including witnesses

Excellent Question.

JM

[majm]

And some other questions, not nearly as important as the one re the 1857 marriage cert ... but

And … who were these two … Joseph LOVE and William LOVE …

The Essex Stand and Colchester, Chelmsford, Maldon, Harwich and General county Advertiser … Friday 19 June 1835; Issue 233.


COMMITMENTS …. 10th instant
Joseph LOVE (by W W Luard Esq) in default of sureties for an assault upon William LOVE of Great Goggeshall.   

.................................................

And this Joseph LOVE - who was he   


The Chelmsford Chronicle, Friday July 10 1835 page 4.
Essex Quarter Session
…..
Discharged by Proclamation …. Joseph LOVE, ….

.........................................................

page 2 of The Chelmsford Chronicle of 1 July 1836

And this Joseph LOVE - who was he - likely #1018 in VDL 

Joseph LOVE was sentenced to fourteen years for the conviction noted on his transportation papers (stealing from Edward WISEMAN at Great Tey).  There is no mention of 12 years, the word in the newspaper cutting is written in full.     So just on that conviction, July 1836 plus 14 years is July 1850. 

........................................
Same chap, off to VDL to arrive on the Henry Porcher   

The Essex Standard (etc) Friday 22 July 1836 (no page number, sorry).
Removal of transports – The following transports ere on Thursday the 14th instant, removed from the Convict Gaol, Springfield to the Leviathan hulk, …. Joseph LOVE, 24, labourer, stealing oranges &c., from Edward Wiseman at Great Tey …

.............................


And AFTER the transport, Henry Porcher, had arrived in VDL …


And ... Who were these two:  Joseph LOVE and Benjamin LOVE .. Leamington Spa seems to be around 120 - 140 miles from Essex…

Leamington Spa Courier,  January 7, 1837, page 4,

Wednesday, Mr Dickins resumed his seat this morning at ten.
Joseph LOVE was indicted for stealing at Rugby, on the 12th December last, 18 inches of shear steel, the property of John DEAN; and Benjamin LOVE, for receiving the same, knowing it to have been stolen…

JM  edit for grammar and sorting out the various cuttings.