William Issac CARRUTHERS, born 1893 in Newcastle

[JenB]

Finally could it be that in 1935 he has become to ill to be at home and has gone into a nursing home in Durham where he died in late 1938.

The fact that the death took place in County Durham doesn't necessarily mean that he was living there. It's simply where the death took place. For instance, he might have been working somewhere in that area https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/durham%20north%20western.html - it wasn't too far from Elswick, where Meldon Street was situated.

[Tickettyboo]

Late to the thread (been busy) but had a look. Get a flask and some sandwiches, this goes on a bit!
I went back to basics, you seem to be sure that the man you are looking for was born in 1893, but his marriage and death are yet to be confirmed.
So I looked at births on the GRO site, to hopefully find some siblings names to help with looking in the census returns

1893 William Isaac CARRUTHERS, mmn BAGG,  Q4 Newcastle upon TYne, 10b 63

Looks possible :-)
I found two other births with the same surname and MMN:
1890 Mary A CARRUTHERS, mmn BAGG, Q1 Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 27
1891 James Robert CARRUTHERS, mmn BAGG, Q3 Gateshead 10a 921

Try as I might, I am unable to find a marriage for a Carruthers and a Bagg - but more of that later.

Looked for Mary Ann in 1891 and this census looks likely:
Piece 4178, folio 35, page 19
39 Leopold St, Gateshead
James Carruthers , Head, 21, married, General Labourer, born Gateshead
Mary A , wife, 18, married, born Newcastle
Mary A , daughter, 15 (?) months, born Newcastle

1901 census 71 George St, Westgate, Newcastle
Piece 4767, folio 229, page 19
James Carruthers, head, 32, married, Blacksmith Striker, born Gateshead
Mary A, wife, 28, married, born Newcastle
Mary A, daughter, single, 11, born Newcastle
James R, son, single, 9, born Gateshead
William, son, single, 7, born Newcastle

so far so good but then it gets complicated :-(
the others in the house in 1901 are
Ellen, daughter, single, 3, born Newcastle
Louisa, daughter, single, born Newcastle
and those two are coming up in the GRO as having mmn of BARBER, not BAGG

and though I can't find a Carruthers- Bagg marriage there IS a likely Carruthers-Barber marriage
Q4 1889, Newcastle T,  Mary Ann Barber and James Carruthers

James wife's age and birth place are consistent on the 1891 and 1901 census and I believe it is the same person rather than a re-marriage for James. I looked for a GRO birth and there was a Mary Ann Barber born Q1 1873 Newcastle, no mmn so likely to be illegitimate, and a likely marriage between a Robert BAGG and a Mary 'Jane' Barber in Q1 1875, Newcastle

They are on the census in 1881 at South Terrace, Westoe, Piece 5012, folio 106, page 42
Robert Bagg, head, married, 43, mariner, born Ireland
Mary 'Ann', wife, married, 28, born Alnwick (middle name is different to the Jane on the marriage)
Mary Ann, daughter, 8 born Newcastle
Ellen Race Bagg, daughter, 3, born Newcastle (GRO gives her mmn as Barber)

So that maybe explains the 'flexible' MMN for the Carruthers children? All depends on who registered the births and how much they knew about the mother's actual parentage?

and the good news is that, though I can't post details, if you look for this Carruthers family in 1911 they very helpfully included middle names on the census return for both of their sons.

Doesn't get you any further forward to his marriage or his death but if you do get the marriage entry it may help to confirm its the right one?

Boo

[Tickettyboo]

Why do I 'always' forget a bit?

I checked the electoral rolls and in 1914 a James Carruthers was registered to vote at 161 Meldon Street which was the address for William Isaac's Mam in the 1917 newspaper item. No middle name so its more likely to be his Dad rather than William's brother James Robert.

Boo

[Shiny1]

Hi Boo,

Thank you very much for the help. Mary Ann Carruthers is my Greatgrandmother and I think the whole family has been a bit of a mystery and elusive. I wonder if it's because of the illigitimate births and they have tried to hide the fact?

So Mary Ann married James Carruthers using the name Bagg (her mother's 'married' name) and Barber (her birth name) when registering her children's birth.

I wonder if there is a similar story for Mary Jane Hall as I can't find any trace of her other than the entry on the marriage BMD.

Michael

[Shiny1]

I note that an Elizabeth Hall is also recorded at 118 Meldon Street in the 1932 register of electors.

William

I've looked either side of that entry and Elizabeth Hall is living there from 1931 to the latest record I can find in 1935. I'll have to go to the library again and see if they have registers for 1936 onwards.

Michael

[Tickettyboo]

So Mary Ann married James Carruthers using the name Bagg (her mother's 'married' name) and Barber (her birth name) when registering her children's birth.


Michael

No. Mary Ann's married to James Carruthers used the surname BARBER (her mother's maiden name and the name in which Mary Ann's birth was registered)
James and Mary Ann's first 3 children were registered with a MMN of BAGG (her mother's married name) then their later children were registered using a MMN of BARBER.

I am not sure that she was trying to hide anything - if that was the case she'd have used BAGG at her marriage, its more likely to be a case of either whoever registered the first births wasn't aware of the circumstances?


Boo

[Tickettyboo]

I note that an Elizabeth Hall is also recorded at 118 Meldon Street in the 1932 register of electors.

William

I've looked either side of that entry and Elizabeth Hall is living there from 1931 to the latest record I can find in 1935. I'll have to go to the library again and see if they have registers for 1936 onwards.

Michael

1936 electoral roll 118 Meldon St., Elswick has an Ernest May Fothergill and a Dora Lilian Fothergill. No one else registered to vote at that address.

Boo

[Shiny1]

The death of a William Isaac Carruthers, age 45, (b 1893), was registered in Durham North Western in Dec Q 1938.

Thanks Boo,

So that means they must have moved somewhere which explains his death being registered as above.

Michael

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Michael

I think I could check the Elswick burial records for you either this week or next week for William - depending on which day I can make the library on time after work.

Added: I have just realised he likely won't be there on account of possibly having moved area.  Sorry, I added first part of this post when in a bit of a mad dash.