Author Topic: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.  (Read 1075 times)

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #9 on: Friday 23 November 18 12:22 GMT (UK) »
Link to long thread ....

Sorry copied wrong thing will try again  ....or just put George Vincent in Search box

you did well to start from dna point of view
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid MCDERMID McDiarmid Gardner Jones ,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson ,McKay

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Online avm228

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #10 on: Friday 23 November 18 12:23 GMT (UK) »
The names George and Robert do seem to be used by the same man:

1861 marriage: Robert
1861 census: Robert
1871 census: George
1873 baptism: Robert
1875 baptism: Robert
1876 baptism: Robert
1881 census: George
1883 school: George (father of Mary)
1891 census: George
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

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Offline Braytons

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #11 on: Friday 23 November 18 12:24 GMT (UK) »
Are these the relevant family baptisms, all at St Pancras?


04 May 1873: Mary Augusta Jane Susannah Vincent, b 27 Dec 1872, abode 29 Ossulston St.

20 Sep 1875: Robert Richard Vincent, b 24 Feb 1871, abode 29 Ossulston St.

24 Jul 1876: Mary Eliza Amelia Vincent, b 06 June 1875, abode 35 Clarendon St.


All children of Robert (cab driver) and Mary.

Yes these are the children.  I have never been able to confirm why the name George was on the 1881 Census but Robert was married to Mary.  There were two brothers, George 1837 and Robert 1835, both born Chatham Kent.  I have pretty comprehensive records for George.  I think he married Elizabeth Jater (1840) but they had no children.  Another thing is that Robert and Mary were married for a good 10 years before the above children were born.  Maybe Robert and George couldn't have children.  It's all a mystery.

Thank you for your help.

I have been going round in circles for some years and hoped DNA would help.

Offline Braytons

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #12 on: Friday 23 November 18 12:32 GMT (UK) »
This is  fascinating story
I'm reading the other thread but have only got to page 6maybe you could summarise what you do know

2 things that came up for me is that baptising the children in Uk would be normal if they were a different religion before adopted  or just because they wanted a family ceremony ..who were godparents .?

My grandmother  had a different middle name on birth certificate and  baptism I think because her middle name was used to identify the father and once a judgement for payment had been obtained ed she could baptise her baby with middle name of her own choosing

Second on school records my great grandfather appears in the parent or guardian  column for his little sister ..your George could have been taking his niece to school if his brother was absent or in prison

I don't think the godparents' names are mentioned are mentioned on the baptism records I have seen.  Would there be further more detailed records of the event?

Her names were Mary Eliza Amelia, so no clues of another surname from those.

I will make a copy as best I can of the information I do know.

Thank you for your thoughts

Online avm228

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #13 on: Friday 23 November 18 12:36 GMT (UK) »
How odd that Robert used his brotherís name George in at least four records (see list at reply #10).

Godparentsí names are not listed (one does sometimes find them, but predominantly in Catholic records).
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline Braytons

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #14 on: Friday 23 November 18 12:47 GMT (UK) »
George and Robert do seem to be the same man:

1861 marriage: Robert
1861 census: Robert
1871 census: George
1873 baptism: Robert
1875 baptism: Robert
1876 baptism: Robert
1881 census: George
1883 school: George
1891 census: George


Yes I have wavered between thinking Robert assumed his brother's name at times (in the earlier thread someone on here found he was in prison for two years), but if I remember right that was before the children appeared.  I think was 1867.

In which case the records of George married to Elizabeth Jater might be a totally unrelated George, although they were both born in Chatham, Kent.  But I do have his birth certificate George William and he was married as George William.

So I am pretty sure Robert for some reason assumed his brother's name!

But there is no getting away from the fact that the census says they were born abroad, which was either a lie or fact.

Thank you for your efforts.  :)


Offline brigidmac

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #15 on: Friday 23 November 18 13:25 GMT (UK) »
Mary Vincent  was a labour wife and looked after new mothers ...it seemed she also boarded  children ...this would be for payment. ..maybe she adopted some children  when payments stopped .my grandma started out as a boarded and was adopted daughter on the next census

Back to the DNA  ..question ....do you have descendents of your grandmothers  siblings with tests?   If these children were all adopted some may have been from same family. .I like the idea that the many names were their original names plus VINCENT  names ...sometimes unmarried mothers gave a girl the grandmothers first name to strengthen case of who she declared was birth father &keep in with his family

With your DNA  results  I strongly recommend using the match button  to see which 4th cousins inter relate
Also use the match by location option if someone with relations i France or south Africa turn up ..that's a good chance it will link to birth parents

  . Have you got any dna circles yet  ?
 It doesn't help that people have closed trees ...and you have to word messages very precostly to get an answer.
What is your closest potential match from a tree so far ? ..."2nd cousins" would be ideal for detective work ....is it clear on your tree that these children may be adopted?
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid MCDERMID McDiarmid Gardner Jones ,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson ,McKay

Offline Braytons

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #16 on: Friday 23 November 18 16:26 GMT (UK) »
Hi brigidmac and thank you again.

Which record describes Mary as a "labour wife"?  Her mother in law Ellen Vincent (1799) in the 1851 census she is a "monthly nurse".

Refence asking others in my family to take the test.  There are no siblings of Mary are still alive.  I am thinking of asking my one cousin who I am in contact with if she will do a DNA test.  I am aware though that some people do not like the idea so would not want to upset her.  I could also ask my sister but wonder how valuable that test would be statistically.  Our mother died in 1996 so no hope there.

Yes I have cross related all the shared matches of each match.  We made a massive chart to try and get our heads round it.  There is a line which have people in Mary's geographical area, St. Pancras/Camden but it was an incredibly densely populated place in the late 1800s.  It would be so much easier if she had been born in a little village in Devon!

I could try France but have a sneaking suspicion that was a red herring which George thought up on the fly.

I do not have any DNA circles.

I do not think I have any matches which I would class as possible links to Mary.  The only second cousin match was to a different branch eg my mother's father's sister. Would she be a second cousin.  Have to admit I don't fully understand 2nd 3rd etc cousin relationships.

No, how does one show a child may have been adopted?

Braytons

Offline Mckha489

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #17 on: Friday 23 November 18 17:51 GMT (UK) »


  Have to admit I don't fully understand 2nd 3rd etc cousin relationships.


Handy chart here. https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/family-history-chart.html
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