Stewarts of Londonderry

[Elwyn Soutter]

Elizabeth McMordie married John Walker 1897, Blythswood, Glasgow.

Elizabeth Walker, nee McMordie death , aged 85, registered Springburn, Glasgow 1963 644/4 384.

Dorothea McMurdie is in the 1901 Scottish census in St Rollox, Glasgow 644/6 67/1. She’s 48, plus Thomas J 19 and John 30.

In the 1911 census it’s Dorothea McMurdo aged 67, plus David McMurdo aged 40. In Possilpark, Glasgow. 644/7 14/2.

Marriage for Jane McMurdie to Donald Bruce 1897 St Rollox, Glasgow 644/6 143

1901 census for St Rollox, Glasgow has Donald Bruce 24, Jane 24, Dorothea L.G. 2 & Helen 1.

Jane 24, may have been a little economical with her age in the census, as she was born in 1872.

[jen5525]

thanks so very much!!!  those are awesome finds and saves me a ton of hunting!!!

And yes, I find that most of my ancestors (most of everyone's I'm sure) are quite liberal with their ages on the census records.  Even deaths are recorded incorrectly many times; I've had to suspend age ranges often to be able to find the right person!   
 

[Elwyn Soutter]

In Jane’s case she appears to have been 4 years older than her husband and may have chosen to round her age down a bit for obvious vanity reasons.  But in general, in Ireland in the 1800s, people didn’t celebrate birthdays and often had little exact idea of their age. When officialdom required one they just guessed. And of course with a death, the position is even worse. The informant has only 3rd hand information. No proof of age was required, the informant gave a guesstimate and so ages on death certificates at that period could be out by up to 10 years or more (for someone who had died in their 60s or 70s).

[jen5525]

thanks for that re: ages on records.  I've found the same thing!

I've been quite busy today, having found several GV records as well as information from the 1831 census which fits quite well with my extracted record from the 1851 census for Dorothy.

From Dorothy's record:

Residence Year:1851
Residence Place: Londonderry, Ireland
Parish: Tamlaght O'Crilly
Barony: Loughinsholin
Townland: Moneystagharr Ellis

GV 1859 for Jane

Occupier: Jane Jones
Lessor: Julius Casement
County: Londonderry
Barony: Loughinsholin
Union: Magherafelt
Parish: Tamlaght O´Crilly
Townland: Moneystaghanellis

*note that Dorothy's wedding was recorded in Magherafelt


There are also 2 GV 1859 records for a William Stewart (also in same Townland).  I originally thought that this might be the eldest sibling of Dorothy.  However, I found him in the 1861 Scotland census; he is living on the same street as his brother James.  William's first child was born around 1853 in Ireland.  His second child, Susan, was reportedly born in Dundee Scotland in 1855.  I don't  find a record for her, unless she was also born in Ireland (or perhaps while they were traveling?).  The 3rd child was Margaret around 1857 and the fourth child was Dorothea, born in Dundee, in 1859, and the 5th child was Amelia born in 1864.  William died in 1863.

I'm at a loss how to find marriage and death records in Ireland...any suggestions?

Jen

[aghadowey]

Possibility? Jane Stewart, widow of James, died 1900-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05764/4628909.pdf

[Elwyn Soutter]

Firstly, a small correction to post no 9 above. I said the 1901 Scottish census had Dorothea, Thomas J & John. It was Dorothea, Thomas J and David J. (Ages unchanged). Sorry about that.

Secondly, Dorothea Walker aged 2 was also staying with the family in that same census. Presumably Elizabeth’s daughter. Dorothea Walker is back with her parents in Possilpark in 1911, together with a couple of siblings and some Walker relatives. 644/7 14/1

I noticed an Andrew McMordie death in St Rollox in 1906, aged 2. That’s presumably a child of one of the males in the McMordie family. Might give you a lead on another part of the tree. St Rollox 644/6 45.

1911 census has John McMurdie 28, plus wife Barbara 28 and 3 children. Possilpark 644/7 14/6. Presumably Thomas John. There’s a marriage for John McMordie to Barbara Campbell in 1904 St Rollox. 644/6 95.

You mention that William Stewart had a child in Ireland in 1853 before moving to Dundee. Are you looking for his marriage? The details should be on his daughter Amelia’s birth certificate in 1864. (Details of parents marriage location and date were normally recorded on Scottish birth certificates in 1855 and from 1861 onwards.) Assuming it was post 1845 and not an RC ceremony, the marriage should be on the GRONI site that I gave you a link to previously.

Regarding deaths in Ireland, statutory death registration only started in 1864, so it’s hard (and often impossible) to find a death for someone who died before that, unless you find a gravestone or mention in a newspaper. The one exception is the Church of Ireland which did keep burial records. I asked previously what denomination the Stewart family were, and this was why. Having said that, I see now that Tamlaght O’Crilly Church of Ireland early records were lost in the 1922 fire, so they have virtually nothing before the 1890s. But the denomination might help a little in identifying likely graveyards.

It’s been mentioned that Dorothy and her siblings were apparently staying with their grandfather Thomas Jones in 1851. You would wonder why? Could both her parents have been dead? (Or the mother anyway). So they went to stay with their grandparents.

I looked for a death for Thomas Jones in the Magherafelt area 1864 to 1901 but did not find one. Presumably he died 1851 – 1863.

Regarding Andrew McMurdy, I searched for a death in Ireland 1864 to 1901 but did not find one. Andrew is not with Dorothea in the 1901 Scottish census. That’s apparent from the indexes. However have you checked the census itself to confirm she was a widow? They might just have gone their separate ways. In which case she’ll be shown as married. Or if it says widow, then you know where you are. You have her death certificate from 1933. Presumably it confirms she was a widow at that date? I haven’t really looked for a death post 1901, but if you are looking for his death, then you should check he was dead, on the 1901 & 1911 censuses.

What other marriages & deaths in Ireland are you trying to find?

[jen5525]

Possibility? Jane Stewart, widow of James, died 1900-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05764/4628909.pdf

thanks! appreciate you looking!  It is an interesting find.  I'm sure they're related in some way. will see if I can figure out how

Looking for Jane, spouse of John. I assume they'd have been born in the range of 1800-1810 or so, give or take a few years on either side, as James was born around 1834 and older brother William around 1831 given their ages on death records/census' in Scotland. My James Stewart (son of John & Jane) and his wife Margaret died in Scotland.   

[jen5525]

Wow Elwyn,  Lots of great info!  Really appreciate it!

Here's what I have relative to what you've found.  I'd found Dorothea Walker age 2 in the 1901 census.  Yes, I agree it must be Elizabeth's daughter.  Hadn't found the 1911 census yet so will look for that.

I also agree Andrew McMordie death in 1906 must be child of one of the males in the family.  will take a look.  I have found death record for Andrew McMordie's Sr. (Dorothea Stewart's husband), indexed in 1900 (death was Dec 1899).  Explains why he's not in the 1901 census, and pins down their move to Scotland as prior to 1899.  Will take a look at the marriage of John McMurdie.  I agree that it could be Thomas John (unless there is a birth for a John that we're missing) as the age is about 2 years younger than expected.

As for William Stewart, I do have his wife's name from a few certificates which I've downloaded (records for Scotland, though expensive, are quite easy); this includes his death record from 1863.  His wife was also born in Ireland (as per census records).  Her name was Jane McKelvy/McKelvie depending on the record.  Was mostly curious on finding the marriage record to see what information it might have had as I've never seen a record from Ireland. 

I'm more curious in general how to find Ireland marriage records if any exist to see if I can find marriages for the siblings of James, Dorothy and William.  From your response, I gather that that might prove very unlikely.  I would still need to track down what happened to John Jr, Richard, and Mary Ann.   Not certain what denomination they were in Ireland (whether Church of Ireland or Presbyterian).  James and Margaret White were the only ones marrying in Scotland so far.  They married in the Scottish Episcopal Church (not Church of Scotland).  Not sure what that means though.

As to the report for the 1851 census.  I'm curious about that as well.  Dorothy did state that they were living with their grandfather Thomas Jones.  Wondering if parents were alive or not.  I believe Jane Jones was alive as there is a Griffiths Valuation for same townland in 1859 showing her leasing a house.  No Thomas or John in that record, so I assume both had passed by that point (and perhaps Jane was left her father's house? Or John was alive, but the house is in Jane's name because it was her father's?; even so, would expect that John would be leasing land as he was a farmer?).  There is a William also listed in the townland.  I had thought it was Jane/John's son, but he was already in Scotland by 1859.  So perhaps it is a brother of John?  Or perhaps John's father (John & Jane's first son was William, so given naming patterns, this is a possibility)?

Would have loved to find death records for Jane Stewart (nee Jones), John Stewart, and Thomas Jones, but even having an idea of graveyards would be helpful.

Thanks so much for letting me "pick your brain" and expertise on this.  I'm great with Scotland's records, but a bit lost when it comes to Ireland.

[Elwyn Soutter]

If the Jones family in Moneystaughan (Ellis) is your family, then according to the 1831 census they were Church of Ireland. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church (after which she’d usually attend her husband’s).  So, if we have the right family, Jane was probably baptised and married in Tamlaght O’Crilly Church of Ireland. Her baptism and marriage are both well before the start of statutory registration (1845 for non RC marriages and 1864 for births) and so you won’t find a marriage or birth certificate for her. You might have found her in the church records but that particular church’s early records were destroyed in 1922 in the fire in Dublin. So sadly, there is probably be no record of her birth or marriage for you to find.

As you know, a Jane Jones appears in Griffiths for Moneystaughan (Ellis) in 1859.  She had plot 4C (a) a labourer or weaver’s cottage on the McIntyre farm. The Valuation Revision records (on the PRONI website)  take that information forward. They show Jane’s name was deleted in the period 1860-1863, suggesting that she may have died. (The property remained vacant after her departure). If she died pre 1.1.1864 there will be no death certificate, and the church burial records have been destroyed.

Going by the 1831 census, 2 of the Stewart families in that townland were Presbyterian (William and Andrew) and 1 RC (Henry).

The Tamlaght O’Crilly RC parish is called Greenlough. Their baptism and marriage records don’t start till 1846. Unusually for an RC parish they have some burial records for the period 1846 – 1870. (They are on-line free on the nli site).

There are 2 Presbyterian Churches in Tamlaght O’Crilly. Boveady’s records start in 1841 & Churchtown in 1840. There is also a Reformed Presbyterian church in the parish at Drumbolg. It’s baptism records don’t start till 1895. Copies of the above records are in PRONI in paper format, but I don’t think they are on-line anywhere.

So the position with the Stewart family is that whether they were Presbyterian or RC, John’s birth is before the start of any surviving records. If he was RC and died post 1846 you might find a burial record. If Presbyterian, you might find Dorothy’s baptism c 1844 (and that of any later siblings). But to search those records you will probably have to go to PRONI (or get someone to do that for you).

Going back to the pension application information from 1915, you will note that Dorothy’s first application (received 22.11.1915) stated she had been living in Moneystaughan Ellis in 1851. The form is noted “not found” indicating that the 1851 census for that townland had been checked but her family weren’t found there. So she re-applied (appln received 1.12.1915), and this time she listed 5 possible townlands. None of them proved correct either. However we still have the benefit of the information listed on her applications. The listing of 6 different townlands indicates that her family were probably labourers/weavers. Farmers tend to stay put and so there would often be no uncertainty about where a person had been living in 1851 as they would have usually been there for years. However labourers often moved around to follow available work and so may have had a number of homes, often for just a season or two, in the same general area. So the listing of a total of 6 townlands is indicative of an agricultural labourer’s way of life, for the Jones family anyway. (And the Jane Jones in Moneystaughan was in a labourer’s cottage).

Labourers and weavers tended not to have the money to pay for a gravestone, and so were often buried without one. So there may not be any Jones gravestones with these family listed on them. But I may be wrong. Sometimes a relative (in America for example) paid to have one erected.

The Stewart/McKelvie marriage looks to have taken place on 2.1.1850 and was registered in Ballymena. Groom is listed as William Stuart and the bride as Jane McCelvey. You can view that certificate on the GRONI site for £2.50. (I gave the link in an earlier post). The format of Irish marriage certificates mirrored English ones and do not contain as much information as Scottish ones.

The Scottish Episcopal church is their equivalent to the Church of England and Church of Ireland.

I’ll come back to you later after I have had time to research some of the other points you have raised.