Re: 1871 census Bethnal green

[keyboard86]

Hi again, the birth of  John Bicknell/Bickell c 1874 " Possibly not the son of Rosetta" was the mmn Belcher?
Two births Daniel 1870 and Ada Catherine 1873 with mmn Belcher who died young?
Keyboard86

[ard]

Thanks for looking.

Unless Alfred was having children with two different women around the same time, I'm thinking those must belong to a different family, though perhaps related. Surely Alfred had siblings. However, anything is possible!!

ard.

[ard]

How about this one for John?

Births JunQ 1874
BICKLE    John        Holborn    1b   746

The mmn isn't indexed...

[ard]

This is off the "1871 Bethnal Green census" topic but I was wondering if anyone had any ideas of how I can find out more about my last known Neale ancestor.

William Neale was possibly born around 1792 and died sometime between 1843 and 1851. Unfortunately, there are a fair number of William Neale births and deaths in the area around those times - too many for me to start sending away for certificates!

Unfortunately, his marriage information doesn't appear to have his father's name so I don't really know where to look! He married Harriet Watts in 1816 at Spitalfields Christ Church, Tower Hamlets, Stepney:

no. 1962 Banns of Marriage between William Neale Bach'r and Harriett Watts Spins'r both of this parish were published on the three Sundays underwritten: That is to say On Sunday the 21st July M? Dale; On Sunday the 28th S?G? McGregor; On Sunday the 4th August W. Wheldale

Marriages solemnized in the Parish of Christ Church in the county of Middlesex in the year 1816
William Neale Bach'r of this parish and Harriett Watts Spins'r of this parish were married in this church by banns with consent of (blank) this fifth day of August in the year one thousand eight hundred and sixteen by me West Wheldale Rector. This marriage was solemnized between us (Wm Neale, H Watts) In the presence of Martha Lithegee (?) (This is why I can sympathize with transcribers... writing can be really difficult to decipher!) and M.A. Watts. * Mary Ann was Harriett's sister, parents Thomas and Mary Ann (Hooper))

There may be hints in the children's names but it's nothing like the Scottish naming pattern!
William and Harriet Neale apparently had 4 children all born Shoreditch. My ancestors were among the working poor, no doubt about it.

William Charles (1817-1867); Edward Thomas (1820-1821); My gg grandfather Henry (1821-1892) and James (1828-?).

According to Harriet's death info, William had been a "mariner". By 1820 he was a Trim(mings) maker when some of his children were born, and a "gentleman" when William Charles and Henry married. In the 1941 census no occupation was entered.

Any suggestions?

[Ladyhawk]

How about this one for John?

Births JunQ 1874
BICKLE    John        Holborn    1b   746

The mmn isn't indexed...

You can search GRO indexes to see if there's a mmn given - it's free to search but you need to register https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

John BICKLE  mmn   NIGHTINGALE     
1874  J Quarter in HOLBORN  Volume 01B  Page 746

[Ladyhawk]

No, "my" Thomas Edward Neale*** married Eliza Duck.

(Oh I just realized his name is Edward Thomas... he was stuck in my head as Thomas Edward, I don't know why)
# 161 Oct 1 1871
Edward Neale full (age) bachelor mould coverer 315? Bethnal Green rd father William Charles Neale deceased
Eliza Duck full  spinster    Bethnal Green father Frederick Duck looking glass maker

My apologies.

Is this your NEALE family?

1851 HO107; Piece: 1522; Folio: 377; Page: 35
William Neale   32 Lace maker
Ann Neale   27
Willm Neale   7
Rosetta Neale   4
Edward Neale   1

NEALE, WILLIAM  HENRY  mmn   LAWRENCE     
1844  M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN  Volume 02  Page 49

NEALE, ROSETTA   mmn    LAWRENCE     
1847  M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN  Volume 02  Page 41

NEALE, CHARLES   mmn LAWRENCE     
1852  D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN  Volume 01C  Page 237

1861 RG 9; Piece: 263; Folio: 114; Page: 42
William C Neal   42
Ann Neal   37
William H Neal   17
Rosetta Neal   13
Edward Neal   11
Catharine Neal   1

NEALE, CATHERINE    mmn   LAWRENCE    
1859  S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN  Volume 01C  Page 304

possible marriage
26 Dec 1880 St Thomas, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlet
Catherine Neate [Catherine Neale] 21, 3 Mount S., father William, Braid maker
Robert Lewis Galliers 21 , 13 Hopetown, father William, bedstead maker
Witnessed by Edward James Godden (x) & Mary Ann Godden
Catherine made her mark (x)

1881  RG11; Piece: 432; Folio: 100; Page: 25
3 Mount Square Bethnal Green
Anne Neale   59
James Neale   17
George Neale   14

NEALE, GEORGE mmn     LAWRENCE     
1867  J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN  Volume 01C  Page 337

13 Feb 1842 St Matthew, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets
William Charles Neale f/a Paris? Lace Manufacturer, 31 ? Nicol St father William, Gent
Ann Lawrence f/a 18 Haberdasher Sq father Thomas, Baker?
she made her mark (x), Witnessed by Thomas Lawrence (x) & Martha ?unker (x)

[ard]

You can search GRO indexes to see if there's a mmn given - it's free to search but you need to register https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

John BICKLE  mmn   NIGHTINGALE     
1874  J Quarter in HOLBORN  Volume 01B  Page 746
[/quote]

I generally use freebmd and the mmn is only indexed after 1911. I have used the gov. site to order certificates before but I think I'll now also use if for searches as well! Unfortunately, it seems that it's hit or miss for the mmn before 1911 anyway!

Re William  and Ann Neale. Yes. William Charles who married Ann Lawrence was brother to my gg grandfather Henry who married Martha Brunker the following year. Henry and Martha may have had a child Henry/John b. 1844 St. Lukes but I don't think Henry stuck around. He later fathered my g-grandfather George in Nov. 1871 with Elizabeth Ricketts (they appeared to be living together in 1871 although her relationship to Head was entered as "no"!) I've found no record of a marriage between Henry and Elizabeth although she did take on the Neale name. George left England for Canada after his parents died and didn't like to talk about his past.

On the other hand, the rest of his Neale relatives all seem to have stayed in the same general area for several generations. I discovered a great resource http://london1868.com/ and have mapped out the streets (based on bmd registrations and census info). For anyone who wants to have a sense of where their Middlesex ancestors lived, I really recommend having a look at it. I was able to print relevant pages and highlight the streets where they had all lived over the years. It was a real eye-opener how close the families all lived to one another for all of the 19C and into the 20th!!!

My initial post refered to a post that mentioned that over 9 000 records from 1871 were not available. Because the topic's status was "completed," my post was moved and so some of the context is missing. I was wondering about the 1871 census because I have found most of the other years except that one for many of the family members. I have nevertheless learned new things thanks to additional information that was looked up for me and shared. I really appreciate all the looks up that have been done for me!!!!! You have all been such a great help. 

William Charles and Ann seemed to have been much more stable than Henry. They had a big family and their children also, for the most part, had large families. William and Henry were  two of 4 known children born to William Sr. and Hariett (Watts). The only other son I can't account for is a James, born in 1828. I don't know if he survived or not. And of course, any other children Henry may have fathered, esp. with Martha!

[keyboard86]

How about this one for John?

Births JunQ 1874
BICKLE    John        Holborn    1b   746

The mmn isn't indexed...

You can search GRO indexes to see if there's a mmn given - it's free to search but you need to register https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

John BICKLE  mmn   NIGHTINGALE     
1874  J Quarter in HOLBORN  Volume 01B  Page 746

So would/could this be the son of Rosetta ( Same qtr/year/place as marriage to Alfred )
Keyboard86

PS from FindMyPast the only "Missing pages" were in areas of Glamorgan and Breconshire in 1871, it is in 1861 large areas/streets in London were missing?

[ard]

Yes, I've no doubt that John is the son of Rosetta - even if her actual maiden name was Neale, her widowed name was indeed Nightingale. Thank you for finding that.

I'm really pleased how far along I've come with the help I've received here! I always look into the extended family my direct ancestors because of the many clues I find and it helps give me a sense of the lives of the people. My Neale ancestors intrigue me greatly simply because of how hard their lives must have been.

So far, I've been luckier with the 1861 census. Interesting what you say about the 1871 census then, because it's the only one I don't have for Edward Thomas Neale (1849) and William Henry Neale (1844) with Mary Ann and one or two daughters, as well as for their widowed mother Ann Neale (1825) with her youngest children. Many gaps have been filled with the recent information, especially regarding Rosetta's remarriage that I'm not sure the 1871 census will hold any surprises but you never know!