Jenkin Williams Llandefalle wealthy family (Skreen, Velyn Newydd) 1760 to 1800s

[Redkite23]

Hi Llanfihangel

Thanks for the extract from Thomas Nicholls which I have now gone through in detail. There are some discrepancies with Theophilius Jones's version. Back to the marriage of John Williams of Skreen to Gwenillian Williams sister of Jenkin Williams of Felin Newydd they agree. Then one has them as brothers of William Williams and the other as sons of William Williams. I have come across a will for Jenkin Williams dated 1713 which may be relevant. This Jenkin lived on a farm in Llandefalle but was not part of the Felin Newydd estate.(I cannot read the name). However, he left his lands to his wife Mary and hen his daughter Mary on his wifes death . The interesting point is the executor-Mr John Williams of Felin Newydd, Gent. Felin Newydd was in the possession of Jenkin Williams not John at this time. I think that Jenkin Williams of Felin Newydd did have a brother John but it was not the  John Williams of Skreen who married Gwenilian . I am starting to think John Williams of Skreen was from a different Williams Family based in Radnorshire. On both Jones and Nicholas lineages there is no other indication of how the Williams of Felin Newydd acquired the Skreen properties.

This is another topic really as it is around 1700. It may require several visits to NLW so I will leave it for now. Any thoughts on this as I see you are also looking for a Rev John Williams. Too many Williams I think!

Redkite23

[osprey]

think the farm name is Trehenry.

[Llanfihangel]

Hello Redkite

Redkite refers to the Red Kites of the Rheidol Valley?

Anyway.
I think I have found the genesis of Jenkin Williams''  the Williams family of Felyn Newydd and Skreen

It is hardly legible but is contained in the Will of Jenkin Williams, Llandefalle, 1660

Se attached

Jenkin Williams describes his "natural father" a couple of times... on the second page he identifies his father as William Jenkins.. natural means that Jenkin was an illegitimate son of William Jenkins

The will refers to a property (Mansion) known as "New Mill",,,,, English for Velyn (Felyn) Newydd, A codicil leaves New Mill to Jenkins wife

I have visited both Felyn Newydd and Skreen on a trip to Wales... They are completely different... Felyn Newydd is a "traditional" ostentatious  mansion. Skreen is more of a very high class farm house, with a commanding view of the River Wye in Erwood Radnorshire. Skreen is on the bank of the Wye on the Radnor/Breconshire border a couple of miles North of Crickardarn

Cheers,
Llanfi 

[Llanfihangel]

Hello Redkite

Here is a Jenkin William Llandefalle writing Roger Vaughan's will posthumously as well as witnessing his inventory  in 1702 Llandefalle Breconshire...

I think it is the same one.. the handwriting of the Will itself is accomplished and the signature is very refined

Note that he names himself Jenkin William not Williams

Cheers,

Llanfi 

[Redkite23]

Hi Llanfihangel

Wow you have come up with a lot of information. I have read it twice and still cannot fully understand it. Jenkin Williams son of William Jenkins seems straightforward from the patronymic system where father is William ap Jenkin and son is Jenkin ap William. Grandfather would have been Jenkin ap (Unknown name). I am guessing this was Jenkin Thomas. However, Jones and Nicholls claim the Thomas name was on the female line. i.e. William Jenkins mother was the daughter of Jenkin Thomas and the patronymic system would not have produced the name Jenkin Williams. However the will shows Jenkin Williams did not fully understand welsh custom as he uses the word melyn for Crickbardarn Mill. It should be Melin as in Melin Gwynt (Windmill). Velyn should be Felin as M and F mutate depending on other words in the sentence. If the Jenkins Williams line were not welsh speakers there may be a case for going from Jenkin Thomas to Jenkin William in their understanding. I note he uses William and not Williams. I am not sure why but it is a straight take from his father William(with no s) Jenkins.
Complicated but I think there is something there.You may well have found the Genesis of this section of the Williams family. I still hope to go to NLW as there are deeds there for Skreen and Felin Newydd. They may show some light on this.  I am not sure what Melyn Crickbardarn is doing in this will as I cannot read it properly. What is your view of the will?

Sorry to disappoint you but redkite does not come from the Rheidol Valley. It comes from the Wye Valley and in particular a public house called "The Red Kite" where I misspent part of  my youth -many many years ago.

Redkite23

[Llanfihangel]

Hello Redkite!

You say "William Jenkins mother was the daughter of Jenkin Thomas and the patronymic system would not have produced the name Jenkin Williams"

Here is the will of Jenkin Williams "natural brother" Edward... "William Parry Edward" 1662 at the Library of Wales

He is living in Vellinewydd and his executor is Elizabeth .... Jenkin William's wife,

Maybe he was a Parry (ap Harry)?
https://viewer.library.wales/732592#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=2&xywh=-153%2C79%2C2175%2C1764

Cheers,


 

Lanfi

[Llanfihangel]

Hello Redkite,

I had a look at Jenkin Williams will 1717 and I am pretty sure the farm is called "Tir Brechva" the will states that Jenkin had purchased the farm from John Williams Fellin Newydd.... He appointed his daughter Mary as executrix

I saw the name Brechfa somewhere else in the search but I can't place it right now...

This Jenkin Williams is probably not a close relative of John Williams of Velyn Newydd Gent

Cheers,

Llanfi
 

[Llanfihangel]

Hello Redkite..

I think you will find a lot of the answers in this will of John Williams of Llaneglwys Gwenddwr Breconshire 1728.

It turns out that Jenkin Williams of Felin Newydd is (this) John Williams brother, and that (this) John's sister Gwenllian Williams had married another John Williams of Skreen Radnor. Gwenllian and John Williams of Skreen had children John, Thomas, William, Ann, Mary, and Fortune as of 1728. Nieces and Nephews of John Williams Llaneglwys...

Cheers,

Llanfi 

[Redkite23]

Hi Llanfi

Thanks for the two replies. I will begin with the first.
Yes I have got that wrong (I don't like admitting I am wrong but in this case will make an exception).
According to Theophilius Jones William Jenkins married Jenkin Thomas's daughter so she was not his mother as I first thought. Secondly I see from Jones that William Jenkins father was Jenkin Bois. So William Jenkins son -Jenkin Williams does follow the patronymic system if you put in the aps. I still do not understand how Jones goes from Bois to Williams but I will leave that until later. Of more immediate use is the will of Jenkin Williams of Tir Brefach. How you could decipher that I do not know. The John Williams of Llaneglwys Will does provide a lot of answers and as I suspected shows the Felin Newydd Williams and the Skreen Williams were different families. So far I have been able to go back with confirmatory evidence to the Children of Gwenillian Williams and John Williams of Skreen but have not seen evidence for the Marriage of John and Gwenillian.
The 1717 Will introduces another problem. John Williams of Felin Newydd sold him the property but the 1754 Will of Jenkin Williams suggests he was the owner of Felin Newydd not John Williams in this period. There is probably some explanation of this.
I think I need to look at this one generation at a time so the Gwenillian and John Williams of Skreen generation will be my next target. I am going to NLW tomorrow as they have Bishops Transcripts for Llandefalle over this period. If I have time I will try and go through their collection of deeds for Skreen and Llandefalle though this may require a second visit.

Redkite 23