Author Topic: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?  (Read 3864 times)

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 04:46 GMT (UK) »

"..George immigrated to Canada with his wife Sarah Whit(t)aker (and a couple of their children)."

Can you expand on this please. What children do you have for George and Sarah.

When did they leave for Canada.  Which children went with them.


Offline lmfamilyresearch

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 10:47 GMT (UK) »
I don't have a lot of information at my fingertips.  George Garth and Sarah had 3 children in England: Edward (b. 1821), Charles (b. 1822) and George Gervase (b. 1825, d. 1827).  They immigrated somewhere between 1827 and 1833.  I suspect that Edward died as a child because I don't think he went to Canada and I haven't found anything on him.  There is a burial record transcription for an Edmund Garth, son of George Garth, in Jan 1822 but I haven't seen the original (or a copy of the original) record so I don't know if Edmund = Edward and it was simply a transcription error.
Bennett, Bowling, Braedine/Brodie, Bulmer, Burns, Cochrane, Devlin, Ellis, Garth, Henderson, Holm/Holmes, Kershaw, Masson, McClernon/McLaren/MacLaren, McComb, McKee, Pitt, Rawood, Riddel, Robinson, Whitaker, Wood

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 21 February 19 01:33 GMT (UK) »
  I suspect that Edward died as a child because I don't think he went to Canada and I haven't found anything on him.  There is a burial record transcription for an Edmund Garth, son of George Garth, in Jan 1822 but I haven't seen the original (or a copy of the original) record so I don't know if Edmund = Edward and it was simply a transcription error.
Abode was Bell Street for baptism of Edward and burial of Edmund. Father on both records was George. George's occupation was stated at baptism but not in burial register.  Baptism 8th April 1821. Burial 20th Jan 1822, age 13 months. I think it was the same child. Edward and Edmund were often mixed up. Baptisms were at St. Chad. George Gervaise Garth was buried at St. Mary in the Baum, Wardleworth. Address was Cheetham Street for George Gervaise's baptism and burial 1825 & 1827.
Any idea where middle name Gervaise came from? Was it used again?
Cowban

Offline lmfamilyresearch

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 21 February 19 01:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

No I don't know where the name Gervase came from and yes it was used again for another son Frederick Gervase Garth (born in Canada).  I had also wondered about the name Gervaise.  I don't even know which side of the family (mother's or father's) it comes from.  The name Gervase doesn't seem to be used after Frederick.  Sarah's maiden name Whitaker was also used as one of the sons middle name.  Like George Gervase Garth, Frederick Gervase Garth also died as a baby (less than a year old).

The other children of George and Sarah born in Canada are Sarah Ann, George William, Richard Mason, Henry Whitaker and William.
Bennett, Bowling, Braedine/Brodie, Bulmer, Burns, Cochrane, Devlin, Ellis, Garth, Henderson, Holm/Holmes, Kershaw, Masson, McClernon/McLaren/MacLaren, McComb, McKee, Pitt, Rawood, Riddel, Robinson, Whitaker, Wood


Offline wivenhoe

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 21 February 19 07:27 GMT (UK) »
At this stage there is just not enough information to identify John GARTH with any certainty.

You need to fill in a lot of gaps here. You need to research the family of George GARTH x Sarah WHITAKER......identify all children.

Where and when were the children born in Canada?

What records do you have from Canada....BDM...cemetery....

Why did they go to Canada....chain migration?,,,,other family already there?

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 21 February 19 15:58 GMT (UK) »
I couldn't find a marriage for George and Sarah. Although as it pre-dated start of Civil Registration (1837) it may not add much useful information.
Another avenue I thought of was graves of members of the Garth family/families who died in the Rochdale area to find out who they were buried with or near. This may not yield results if there are no tombstones or if they were buried in communal graves or if some burials were undocumented. Law on burials in England changed mid & late-19thC. Public cemeteries were opened. Prior to then most burials were at the parish church which was C. of E., even for people who weren't Anglican. However some Non-Conformist and R.C. congregations had their own unauthorised burial grounds.  Registers for these may be incomplete, damaged, illegible, lost or never existed. Hopefully any which survived will have been deposited with Lancashire Archives in Preston.
Cowban

Offline lmfamilyresearch

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #33 on: Friday 22 February 19 12:48 GMT (UK) »
I looked at Find A Grave to see if there was any Garths in their database and nothing.  I haven't even been able to find any monument inscriptions for any of the cemeteries in Rochdale.  Unfortunately, I am unlikely to visit Rochdale in person any time soon.  It would have to part of a planned trip to the UK and that's just not in the plans for the next couple of years :(

I do have the marriage record for George and Sarah (they got married in Manchester Cathedral).

I spent some time last night trying to figure out Walter Garth's family.  Other than the 1841 census I am having trouble connecting him to my John Garth.  Walter's marriage record states that his father (John) was a blacksmith, whereas my John Garth was a cotton weaver and shopkeeper.  I had thought that maybe my John had a son named John but I can't find any baptisms that would seem reasonable.  Plus, I'm not sure how likely it would be for someone to go from being a cotton weaver to blacksmith to shopkeeper.
Bennett, Bowling, Braedine/Brodie, Bulmer, Burns, Cochrane, Devlin, Ellis, Garth, Henderson, Holm/Holmes, Kershaw, Masson, McClernon/McLaren/MacLaren, McComb, McKee, Pitt, Rawood, Riddel, Robinson, Whitaker, Wood

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 23 February 19 00:28 GMT (UK) »
I spent some time last night trying to figure out Walter Garth's family.  Other than the 1841 census I am having trouble connecting him to my John Garth.  Walter's marriage record states that his father (John) was a blacksmith, whereas my John Garth was a cotton weaver and shopkeeper.  I had thought that maybe my John had a son named John but I can't find any baptisms that would seem reasonable.  Plus, I'm not sure how likely it would be for someone to go from being a cotton weaver to blacksmith to shopkeeper.
I've had a few thoughts on Walter and his father, John, the blacksmith.
Blacksmith was a skilled occupation, requiring an apprenticeship. It was a respected occupation, indispensable in any community. I suppose a man might have become a blacksmith in his youth and later have become unfit through injury or age and taken up another occupation. However, when Walter was born, your John was middle-aged and there was no other evidence that he was a blacksmith.
Walter's father may have been a son of John 1766, perhaps from an earlier marriage. John Garth was around 30 when he married, which was late for a first marriage. Plenty of time for him to have had another clutch of kids.
Walter may have been the son of an unmarried daughter of John Garth but brought up by John and his wife. The father on Walter's marriage certificate may have been made up - possibly an amalgam of his grandfather's name and the real father's occupation. 
Walter may have been a grandson of John's wife but not of John but he or his parent adopted the Garth surname.
Would Mary, John's wife, have been young enough to have been mother of Walter? Her recorded age at death in 1838 was 61. However, age at death wasn't always accurate.
Cowban

Offline lmfamilyresearch

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Re: John GARTH (b. ca. 1766, d. 1842) - where did he come from?
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 23 February 19 01:00 GMT (UK) »
There's really no way of me knowing how old Mary really was at her marriage.  If the math is done correctly, Mary would have been about 20 at the time of her marriage.  If Walter was between 15 and 20 in the 1841 Census, Mary would have been about 40-45 when Walter was born, so I guess it's not out of the realm of possibilities.  However, that would have been at least about 15 years between William (b. 1812, if the parents are really my Mary and John) and Walter.

There are many possibilities as to what the relationship could be.  Too bad the 1841 census didn't state relationships.
Bennett, Bowling, Braedine/Brodie, Bulmer, Burns, Cochrane, Devlin, Ellis, Garth, Henderson, Holm/Holmes, Kershaw, Masson, McClernon/McLaren/MacLaren, McComb, McKee, Pitt, Rawood, Riddel, Robinson, Whitaker, Wood