Author Topic: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland  (Read 8215 times)

Offline Rosinish

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 15:55 BST (UK) »
Black's  "Surnames of Scotland!" has zilch for these names!

Skoosh...

His hearing must have been bad, sounds nothing like 'SHOULTS' !!!  ;D  :P

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Rosinish

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 17:37 BST (UK) »
"“George Frederick Shoults married Jemima Bicknell Back
Their son, George Barrett Shoults became a famous tomato grower and married Mary Ann Greenhill
Their son, George Frederick Shoults married Caroline Jane Fearnside at Marnoch, Banffshire, Scotland, in 1890”


I downloaded the 1890 marriage out of curiosity as to a Scottish connection...
George Frederick is a Florist, his father is also a Florist although named as George Bicknell Shoults i.e. can you confirm the actual middle name for father George?

1911 census index, wife Caroline is in Stirling on her own, no husband or children with her.

1925 VR index, it seems George was not living in Cowdenbeath in 1925 as the property has a Tenant/Occupier

It's interesting the marriage was in Marnoch, property in Cowdenbeath some 145 + miles apart given his address on marriage was Rousley, North Finchley, Middlesex some 426 + miles from Marnoch i.e. no real clue as to why he was in Scotland.

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Rosinish

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 17:44 BST (UK) »
This link shows wars which may have brought your ancestors to England?

I think anything at this stage is worth consideration as it's definitely not a british name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_Kingdom

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Forfarian

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 18:19 BST (UK) »
It's interesting the marriage was in Marnoch
Where was Caroline's residence and did she have any occupation at the time of the marriage?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline Philomel1910

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 21:06 BST (UK) »
Forfarian and other contributors: thank you for your additional posts, links and suggestions. Yes, of course we have also researched wars and it's a big subject.  I agree Shoults and its variants has come from abroad but it could have been well-settled in this country even as early as the Viking hordes, so I am not going to pin down the period in history when the name first appeared in the British Isles. There are two George Frederick Shoults's on that tree. One is born in Southwark in 1802. He was a son of Peter Shoults junior - a carpenter like his father. This George Frederick married Jemima Bicknell Back (interesting family by the way - long story!). Their son, George Barrett Shoults (born Webb Street, Southwark, 1837-D.1909) was a florist. George Frederick Shoults, his son (born 20 January 1862, Finchley-D.1926) was a florist, but I've got a document buried in the pile that describes one of the George Shoults in this family cultivating tomatoes: the Shoults Blaby tomato of Leicestershire.  George Barrett Shoults is the man, as I recall. You can't even get the seeds now! George Barrett Shoults (1837-1909) married Mary Ann Greenhill (B.1837-d.Finchley, 1923) and it is their son, George Frederick Shoults (B.1862-D. 1 April 1926) who married Caroline Jane Fearnside at Marnoch. In answer to question what profession did Caroline have, I don't know. She is in the 1881 census for Marnoch but I have not been able yet to see a copy of that census. I am currently waiting to receive some letters from G F Shoults (1862-1926) and Caroline J Shoults, written to one of their children that might shed more light on the family. On subject of name spelling variants: here's an interesting one from Poland: Šolc. When pronounced it sounds the same as Shoults. So if we find a baptism or birth record for Piotr Mart͡ɕin Šolc (the Polish spelling of his name) in 1747, give or take a year or two, we shall be very interested to see how he might fit but we're very cautious about this sort of thing. This example is a good one to illustrate the point about begging to differ when it comes to the “right spelling” and the “wrong spelling”.  No point in making a fictional tree which will mislead so many other people in their individual quests. This Shoults family is so large to navigate it's no suprise to me if I've actually made some mistakes in what I post here. I do my best to be accurate but a lot of the family papers are buried in boxes or somewhere stored and wading through it to find which one grew tomatoes is a task I can hardly face with enthusiasm! Eventually I will find it but I am working on a giant project at the moment and genealogy is a hobby, not an occupation for me. I had to edit this because I'd garbled this tree at the first attempt. It is so confusing to have two George Frederick and a George Barrett Shoults. I don't know where George Bicknell Shoults would fit in, I'd have to check where he is!

Offline Rosinish

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 21:27 BST (UK) »
How sure are you of the middle name of George Shoults being Barrett rather than Bicknell which is his mother's maiden name?

Does he use his middle name or the initial B on documents?

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Forfarian

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 22:26 BST (UK) »
In answer to question what profession did Caroline have, I don't know. She is in the 1881 census for Marnoch but I have not been able yet to see a copy of that census.
It is very easy to view the 1881 census. A transcription of that census can be seen free of charge at Scotland's People, and you can view the original (transcriptions not always being reliable) at modest cost on the same web site.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Philomel1910

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 22:47 BST (UK) »
Rosinish, A 5th cousin of mine (Don Geoffrey, 17 Jul 1934-D. 21 Oct 2008) who researched with me sent his particular tree. His mother, Helen Shoults (born 19 May 1898, Finchley- D. 10 Sep 1981) was a grand-daughter of George Barrett Shoults. I will hunt for the other trees but I am sure that George Bicknell Shoults, who married Mary Ann is somebody else. He was born in Bermondsey, not Webb Street, Southwark, and the year was 1838 for his birth. I think it likely George Barrett Shoults, born at Webb Street, Southwark, 27 July 1837, was a cousin of this George Bicknell Shoults. He is certainly somewhere on that branch of the Shoults tree because of the name Bicknell which comes from Jemima Bicknell Back. I am no longer subscribed to Ancestry as I don't have the time to subscribe.
Forfarian, Thank you for letting me know that the 1881 census for Marnoch can be viewed at Scotland's People. I'll have a look at that at the earliest opportunity.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: SHOULTS & PHONETIC EQUIVALENTS name in Scotland
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 02 April 19 22:49 BST (UK) »
Please don’t take this the wrong way Philomel, but may I offer a suggestion?

It is excellent that your replies are comprehensive, but would you mind breaking them up into paragraphs?

I find your long posts very hard to follow and keep losing my place when reading them as there are no breaks. Seeing a wall of words is a little off putting and may deter any potential helpers from wading through it all.

You admitted yourself that the family is confusing, and you have worked on it for years. It is a lot more confusing for us who are not familiar with the characters.

A comment about the pronunciation and differences in spelling....

Just as spelling varies, so does pronunciation surely. For example, there is a difference in how my foreign born grandmother pronounces her surname compared to how I pronounce it.

This could also have been the case particularly with the first generation of your Shoults who arrived in England. Unfortunately you have no way of knowing what the original surname was, how it sounded, how it was spelled, or how it was interpreted in England. 

Add into the mix similar sounding names from different countries in different languages, and you have a possibly impossible task to find their origins, unless there is some documentation this end which mentions a place of origin.

If I were you I would consider a DNA test. You are likely to get matches which may be very vague area wise, and your questions may still not get answers, but you never know until you try.

I would suggest having a family member who is not from the Shoults side, also take a test, so you can separate Shoults and non Shoults matches. Alternatively if you have a direct Shoults descendant who would be willing to test, all the better.