Author Topic: Manchester "Peterloo"  (Read 5173 times)

Offline Viktoria

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #36 on: Saturday 03 August 19 21:49 BST (UK) »
The meeting was orderly until The  Cheshire Yeomanry charged into the crowd.
Reports had it that  as Yeomanry they were not professional soldiers and had they been it would have been more orderly and so most probably fewer casualties,  if any and less panic.
Many were there because they were hoping their demonstration would bring about the repeal of The Corn Laws and so the price of bread would be more affordable for working people.
The fact that whole families were there in a day out sort of atmosphere showed the peaceful intentions of the crowd.
The Chartist movement had a presence too.
There was a lovely building in Ancoats built by The Chartist movement.  “ The Round House “ in Ancoats near Ancoats Hall.
It was the time of rotten boroughs and the ” Pot Walloper boroughs”
Manchester had one M.P whereas somewhere like Old Sarum a deserted village had two  and places much smaller than M/c had several.
So there were several causes that day.
It was entirely peaceable until the cavalry charged with drawn swords.
People were chased for long distances ,some as far as Haslingden, on the way to Burnley.
Even so it was the 1830’s before Peel repealed The Corn laws.
A good account in a famous book by Linnaeus Banks, The Manchester Man.
A good description of the events on Oldham St and Oldham Rd.as the cavalry chased people.
Book written pre1876 ,with some   first hand accounts included by author.
When you think that many of those present came from surrounding areas and were still home workers,spinning and weaving in their cottages in the areas surrounding Manchester and only twenty five or thirty years later the slums of Manchester  had been built, according to Friedrich Engels the worst slums in Europe.
 
Wonder what the casualty figures would have been then as the population of Manchester must have quadrupled .
There were also by then Irish Immigrants fleeing the famine and they had their own grievances besides those of the indigent population.
Interesting times, once again we do not know we are born!
Viktoria.
Just read the relevant chapter and and it was The Manchester and Cheshire Yeomanry.
They charged so they could issue a warrant to Hunt,but they could see they would  not get through the crowd,so they charged when all was peaceable.
The order was not necessary and the one who commanded it was justly condemned.
There were many injuries and those who died later from their wounds were not counted as mortalities ,only those who died at the scene.
Viktoria.


Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #37 on: Thursday 08 August 19 01:12 BST (UK) »
The meeting was orderly until The  Cheshire Yeomanry charged into the crowd.
Reports had it that  as Yeomanry they were not professional soldiers and had they been it would have been more orderly and so most probably fewer casualties,  if any and less panic.
Many were there because they were hoping their demonstration would bring about the repeal of The Corn Laws and so the price of bread would be more affordable for working people.
The fact that whole families were there in a day out sort of atmosphere showed the peaceful intentions of the crowd.
The Chartist movement had a presence too.
There was a lovely building in Ancoats built by The Chartist movement.  “ The Round House “ in Ancoats near Ancoats Hall.
It was the time of rotten boroughs and the ” Pot Walloper boroughs”
Manchester had one M.P whereas somewhere like Old Sarum a deserted village had two  and places much smaller than M/c had several.
So there were several causes that day.
It was entirely peaceable until the cavalry charged with drawn swords.
People were chased for long distances ,some as far as Haslingden, on the way to Burnley.
Even so it was the 1830’s before Peel repealed The Corn laws.
A good account in a famous book by Linnaeus Banks, The Manchester Man.
A good description of the events on Oldham St and Oldham Rd.as the cavalry chased people.
Book written pre1876 ,with some   first hand accounts included by author.
When you think that many of those present came from surrounding areas and were still home workers,spinning and weaving in their cottages in the areas surrounding Manchester and only twenty five or thirty years later the slums of Manchester  had been built, according to Friedrich Engels the worst slums in Europe.
 
Wonder what the casualty figures would have been then as the population of Manchester must have quadrupled .
There were also by then Irish Immigrants fleeing the famine and they had their own grievances besides those of the indigent population.
Interesting times, once again we do not know we are born!
Viktoria.
Just read the relevant chapter and and it was The Manchester and Cheshire Yeomanry.
They charged so they could issue a warrant to Hunt,but they could see they would  not get through the crowd,so they charged when all was peaceable.
The order was not necessary and the one who commanded it was justly condemned.
There were many injuries and those who died later from their wounds were not counted as mortalities ,only those who died at the scene.
Viktoria.

Sorry but this information is wrong.

Peterloo happened  in 1819. The 'Chartist' period did not begin until the late 1830s and the Irish famine was in the 1840s. There was no "Chartist presence' at Peterloo, this came later at  much larger meetings, such as Peep Green in 1839.
Apart from Peterloo, Manchester wasn't  even known as that much of a radical town 

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #38 on: Thursday 08 August 19 01:35 BST (UK) »
...also, it wasn't the 'Cheshire Yeomanry'
It was the Manchester and Salford.


Offline Viktoria

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #39 on: Thursday 08 August 19 08:46 BST (UK) »
The Fifteenth Hussars had 600 soldiers
The Cheshire Yeomanry had 400
Manchester and Salford had 120
And there were 400 Constables.
Although the Chartists were not as yet a society there were people who had the principles of Chartism at Peterloo.It was a embryonic movement even in 1819. According to my History teacher.
If you read my post again you will see I mention the Irish famine as a factor in the vastly increased population of Manchester, but 20 to 25 years later - in 1840-45,( 1815 for P/loo was a typing error),and I made the comparison with the number killed at Peterloo with what it  could easily have been when the population had vastly increased by the Irish immigrants, had Peterloo been 20 to 25 years later.
I did not say there were refugees from the famine at Peterloo,only that had there been the casualties would have been much higher.

There are many sources and many tales and false histories about any event,
one of my sources was the book “ The Manchester Man” by Linnaeus Banks.
Written  pre  1876.
There is an explanation regarding people interviewed by the author and their first hand experiences ,noticeably in Oldham Street Manchester.
The crowd had been ordered not to carry even a walking stick, it had to be seen as an absolutely peaceful meeting.
But the soldiers were ordered to move the crowd so a  writ could be served to one in the platform,and so charged with the historic results we know about.
My apology for the date error, but the rest is from history lessons,Radio programmes, reading material and just being a Mancunian with the wonderful murals in ( I nearly put Muriel’s then!)Manchester’s  Glorious Town  Hall.
Viktoria

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #40 on: Thursday 08 August 19 10:46 BST (UK) »
Victoria

The main reason the population in the industrial districts/ towns like Manchester 'vastly' increased was because people moved in from the surrounding Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cheshire etc countryside. Though most people attending Peterloo were not actually from Manchester. They came from surrounding town's

Yes there were waves of  Irish immigration at certain times, circa late 1840s, circa 1900 and also after the last war, but the Irish joined a huge demographic of English Working Class and so did not make a 'vast' difference to the population and especially not in 1819.

These are the most common surnames in Lancashire in 1881. The surnames for Manchester, even now, are similar

http://www.britishsurnames.co.uk/1881census/lancashire

SMITH   45,465   1.3115   0.93
TAYLOR   38,342   1.1060   1.73
JONES   34,724   1.0017   0.88
JACKSON   18,242   0.5262   1.88
WILLIAMS   18,213   0.5254   0.73
BROWN   17,335   0.5001   0.76
ROBINSON   16,378   0.4725   1.48
WILSON   15,643   0.4512   0.98
JOHNSON   15,078   0.4350   1.29
ROBERTS   14,387   0.4150   1.10
HARRISON   13,369   0.3857   1.74
DAVIES   13,293   0.3835   0.75
THOMPSON   13,089   0.3776   1.26
WOOD   13,015   0.3754   1.18
HUGHES   12,467   0.3596   1.28
WALKER   12,032   0.3471   1.04
HALL   11,757   0.3392   1.15
SHAW   11,616   0.3351   1.82
TURNER   11,591   0.3344   1.20
HOWARTH   11,395   0.3287   6.84
HOLT   10,528   0.3037   4.54
WRIGHT   10,502   0.3029   0.94
GREEN   10,442   0.3012   1.07
WILKINSON   10,296   0.2970   1.95
ASHWORTH   9,551   0.2755   6.91
EVANS   9,220   0.2660   0.61
YATES   9,171   0.2646   3.85
HOLDEN   9,076   0.2618   4.78
MORRIS   8,723   0.2516   1.13
RILEY   8,663   0.2499   3.16
KELLY   8,522   0.2458   2.24
WALSH   8,416   0.2428   4.56
BOOTH   8,397   0.2422   2.46
LORD   8,273   0.2386   5.18
WHITTAKER   8,043   0.2320   4.90
SCHOFIELD   7,978   0.2301   4.25
BUTTERWORTH   7,951   0.2294   6.39
HARGREAVES   7,874   0.2271   5.45
PARKINSON   7,744   0.2234   4.66
CHADWICK   7,697   0.2220   5.08
HILL   7,522   0.2170   0.85
HARTLEY   7,518   0.2169   3.46
LEE   7,497   0.2163   1.32
GREENWOOD   7,302   0.2106   2.71
WHITEHEAD   7,269   0.2097   3.10
KAY   7,249   0.2091   4.02
WARD   7,223   0.2084   0.95
FLETCHER   7,205   0.2078   1.82
EDWARDS   7,112   0.2052   0.74
BARNES   6,968   0.2010   1.67



Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #41 on: Thursday 08 August 19 12:47 BST (UK) »
Part 2 of "Peterloo - The Aftermath" is in Radio 4 tomorrow at 11 a.m.
Cowban

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #42 on: Thursday 08 August 19 13:59 BST (UK) »
The Peterloo massacre sparked rioting across central Scotland,  a memorial rally on Sep' 11th in Paisley attended by 5,000 radicals, led to a week of rioting.

Skoosh.

Offline Regorian

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #43 on: Thursday 08 August 19 13:59 BST (UK) »
Viktoria, you have found the cavalry strengths. Do you know the infantry strengths, There were hundreds if not a thousand, most likely detachments from regular (and militia) regiments. There were also 2 cannon of the Royal Artillery.

The contemporary prints show Manchester and Salford Yeomanry (disbanded 1825) and 15th Hussars. The Yeomanry uniforms were the 1812 light dragoon pattern, very similar to the 11th Light Dragoons with white collars, cuffs and plastron fronts. In the film, looks like the re-enactment group of 11th LD's acted as Manchester Yeomanry. No sign of Cheshire Yeomanry.

Only way to get to the stand where Orator Hunt was, was by using the horses to force a way through, that would have caused hundreds of casualties in a close packed crowd let alone their sabres, the deadly 1796 light cavalry pattern. In the Peninsula, the French made an official complaint about them.         
Griffiths Llandogo, Mitcheltroy, Mon. and Whitchurch Here (Also Edwards),  18th C., Griffiths FoD 19th Century.

Offline Viktoria

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Re: Manchester "Peterloo"
« Reply #44 on: Thursday 08 August 19 17:50 BST (UK) »
SallyYorks,I did say the Irish did not come over until the famine years1840’s.
My point was that had that many more people been in M/c at the time of Peterloo,the  casualty lists would have been much longer.
I know the vast majority of those at St. Peter’s Fields were from outlying districts but Arkwright had built his mill on Miller Street Angel  Meadow M/c between 1771 and early 1780’s.
So Cottonopolis has already begun.
It was vast and would have employed many.
They would not have travelled from the outlying districts given the long hours -12 hour shifts and also child labour., every day so the slum dwellings began to be built .
As cheaply as possible, so as small as possible ,as quickly as possible and as close to the mill as possible.
Only demolished in the 1930’s but some as late as the late forties.
The area where it was built was quite rural, St. Michael’s and all Angels Church was a carriage church ( posh!)and the area named Angel Meadow which is what it would have been formerly, a lovely Meadow with the little river Irk running through.
Later that was an open sewer ,yet the only source of water for that area .
Anyway ,as I said ,the Irish people came in the 1840’s .
Amongst the troops I mentioned were there others were there .
, I did not know many of those mentioned .I think M/c Town Hall is closed for visitors ,re decoration ,but I must go to see those murals again.
What a pity in this 200 year anniversary of Peterloo!

The central figure in The Manchester Man is Jabez Clegg an orphan, found in  a cradle floating down the Irk in the floods.
His path crosses that of Laurence Aspinall at M/c Cathedral at a mass Baptism.
Jabez was  adopted by a poor tanner who saw the cradle in the water.
Laurence is very upper crust and is horrible to  poor but honest Jabez. ::)::)
 they meet again when the rivalry between M/c Grammar school and Chetham’s gets out of hand .
 At Peterloo Laurence is in The Cheshire Yeomanry and his troop chase people right up Oldham St .where there a good many casualties listed .
Thank you all for you knowledge  and expertise,my error re date ,sorry.
Thanks for the radio link too.
Melvin Bragg did  a good coverage in “ In Our Time “ earlier in the year.
Never does any harm to be corrected, we did Peterloo it in history at school and boy
did it make us proud to be Mancunians.
That was Er——16 from 82,  6 from 2 you can’t so borrow a 10, 6 from 10 is 4 add the 2= 6 . Pay back the 10 you borrowed to the tens column so 2 from 8 = 6. Answer 16 from 82 = 66,I think!

But much more evidence is now known these days.

Forgive a poor old lady a few errors won’t you. :-[
Cheerio,Viktoria.