Dual RC/ CoE Baptism

[Blue70]

To explain a bit why this was controversial and the relevance of Scotland Road. This part of north Liverpool was considered to be near the border of two different communities. Scotland Road was more Catholic and Netherfield Road Protestant. The supposed border usually being Great Homer Street.

These areas experienced sectarian riots where people were forced from their homes for being the wrong religion in the wrong place. So it was drilled into people of both faiths in these areas to stick to their religion and people who married out of their faith were often disowned by family members.


Blue

This would be an imported sectarianism though. They were problems between Irish Catholic and Irish Protestant immigrants.
The topic family appear to be English CofE and English Catholic. Not sure how much a Scotland road area native CofE, Catholic or nonconformist, would get involved in any argument between two Irish communities? Wouldn't most native Lancashire/Liverpool people in the area want to stay out of such hostilities. The indigenous English heritage Scotland road CofE and Catholics wouldn't have the same history of animosity toward each other.

No this was not an issue of two groups of Irish migrant communities. There was a history of problems before the great influx of Irish migrants. Catholic chapels were attacked in the 18th century. When numbers of catholics were swelled by Irish migration differences became more apparent and people became more tribal and territorial. It was more about religious affiliation than about Irishness. Outwardly defined by the school you went to, religious or sectarian parades, church attendance, celebrations, where you married and where you baptised your children.


Blue 

[Blue70]

The 1909 riots were sparked by protestant hostility towards a catholic parade it was very tribal it sucked a lot of people in whether you wanted to be involved or not. People wanted to know back then are you a catholic or protestant there was a lot of division. Mixed marriages often increased the bitterness with children going one way or the other in their religion:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/liverpool/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8241000/8241927.stm


Blue

[sallyyorks]

No this was not an issue of two groups of Irish migrant communities.

I disagree. It obviously was.

There was a history of problems before the great influx of Irish migrants. Catholic chapels were attacked in the 18th century.

Lancashire, Yorkshire and parts of the West Midlands already had high numbers of English Catholics, either conforming or nonconforming. These families intermarried with the CofE (itself a reformed Catholic church). Toleration in these districts must have been fairly high, not just of Catholics but also of other nonconformist. Some of the most powerful North of England landowning families were Catholic

Where were these attacks on Catholic chapels?

When numbers of catholics were swelled by Irish migration differences became more apparent and people became more tribal and territorial. It was more about religious affiliation than about Irishness. Outwardly defined by the school you went to, religious or sectarian parades, church attendance, celebrations, where you married and where you baptised your children.

Blue

Did everyday English people, the working class, become more religiously tribal during the 19th century? Are there many examples of this?
The North of England was a very mixed bag of denominations in the 19th c. Yet we see very little conflict between any of them. You had the CofE, the Catholics, the Methodists, the Primitive Methodists, Quakers, Presbyterians, Wesleyan's and so on. They largely tolerated each other wouldn't you agree?

[sallyyorks]

The 1909 riots were sparked by protestant hostility towards a catholic parade it was very tribal it sucked a lot of people in whether you wanted to be involved or not. People wanted to know back then are you a catholic or protestant there was a lot of division. Mixed marriages often increased the bitterness with children going one way or the other in their religion:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/liverpool/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8241000/8241927.stm


Blue

The clashes mentioned in the link seem to be between Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics. It even refers to parts of Liverpool being dubbed as the 'Belfast of England'.

There is a difference between someone being 'Protestant' and someone being CofE. For example unlike Ireland and Scotland, we don't see a large number of Orange Orders or parades in England.

[Blue70]

The 1909 riots were sparked by protestant hostility towards a catholic parade it was very tribal it sucked a lot of people in whether you wanted to be involved or not. People wanted to know back then are you a catholic or protestant there was a lot of division. Mixed marriages often increased the bitterness with children going one way or the other in their religion:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/liverpool/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8241000/8241927.stm


Blue

The clashes mentioned in the link seem to be between Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics. It even refers to parts of Liverpool being dubbed as the 'Belfast of England'.

There is a difference between someone being 'Protestant' and someone being CofE. For example unlike Ireland and Scotland, we don't see a large number of Orange Orders or parades in England.

It doesn't say Irish v Irish the differences were between catholics and protestants. It compares the rioting to the type common in Belfast. You don't seem to know about the history of that part of Liverpool I have both Catholic and Protestant ancestry and connections to the area so I've got local knowledge of what it was like. It's much better these days. For information about catholic chapels in Liverpool being attacked in the 18th century see the history of St Mary's RC Liverpool its early chapels were attacked by mobs:-

https://archive.org/details/catholichistoryo00burkuoft/page/n6


Blue

[Maiden Stone]

There was a history of problems before the great influx of Irish migrants. Catholic chapels were attacked in the 18th century.

Lancashire, Yorkshire and parts of the West Midlands already had high numbers of English Catholics, either conforming or nonconforming. These families intermarried with the CofE (itself a reformed Catholic church). Toleration in these districts must have been fairly high, not just of Catholics but also of other nonconformist. Some of the most powerful North of England landowning families were Catholic

Where were these attacks on Catholic chapels?

Various places in 18th C. Preston and neighbouring villages (A mob from Preston). London, Liverpool. Probably other places.
Times: 1715 & 1745 Jacobite Risings; Jacobite Army occupied Preston 1716.  1780 Gordon Riots which were a reaction to the Catholic Relief Acts. Gordon Riot was a recent topic on Melvyn Bragg's Radio 4 series "In Our Time", available on BBC iPlayer or BBC Sounds. The senior Catholic bishop in England had to go into hiding in London.
The papal decree on marriage "Ne Temere" 1908 which required a Catholic to marry in presence of a Catholic priest caused ill-feeling.
I've wondered if the reason why the marriage of my Scottish Catholic 3xGGF to my English C. of E. 3xGGM at St. Ignatius R.C. church, Preston didn't happen until the end of the month of her 21st birthday, 2 years after birth of their 1st child, was parental objection due to folk memory of 2 Jacobite armies marching to Preston. Their 2 sons were baptised C. of E. The 2 daughters might have been R.C.  Great-granddaughters of Scottish 3xGGF were the trio who had 2 baptisms.

[Maiden Stone]

Re attacks on Catholic chapels in 18thC. These were 2 chapels some of my English Catholic ancestors used.
www.ourladyandstedwards.co.uk/fylde/fyldefolk.htm
See: St. Andrew, Cottam - The mission at Cottam - Rev. John Harrison, Rev. Mr. Smith
and  St. Mary, Newhouse - Rev. John Carter
for accounts of attacks in 1745 and 1768. On both occasions the mob attacked St. Mary's in Preston first.

[sallyyorks]

It doesn't say Irish v Irish the differences were between catholics and protestants. It compares the rioting to the type common in Belfast. You don't seem to know about the history of that part of Liverpool I have both Catholic and Protestant ancestry and connections to the area so I've got local knowledge of what it was like. It's much better these days. For information about catholic chapels in Liverpool being attacked in the 18th century see the history of St Mary's RC Liverpool its early chapels were attacked by mobs:-

https://archive.org/details/catholichistoryo00burkuoft/page/n6


Blue

I do know something about the history of Lancashire and I also have Lancashire Catholics, CofE and nonconformists in my tree.
What do you mean by 'Protestant'? Do you mean your Irish ancestors or your English CofE ancestors?

Various places in 18th C. Preston and neighbouring villages (A mob from Preston). London, Liverpool. Probably other places.
Times: 1715 & 1745 Jacobite Risings; Jacobite Army occupied Preston 1716.

The Jacobite attempt at an invasion of England was led by an English landowning Protestant MP, Thomas Forster. This rather weak attempt was met with little resistance in the north of England apart from the siege at Preston and even there the townsfolk were not heavily involved.
It wasn't a simple case of Protestant versus Catholic, far from it

1780 Gordon Riots which were a reaction to the Catholic Relief Acts. Gordon Riot was a recent topic on Melvyn Bragg's Radio 4 series "In Our Time", available on BBC iPlayer or BBC Sounds. The senior Catholic bishop in England had to go into hiding in London.

The Gordon rioters were multi denomination and even multi ethnic Londoners. The hanged leaders of the riot, which included at least 2 black people and a Romany Gypsy, came from a wide range of backgrounds and even included London Catholics. The primary objective of the rioters seems to have been looting, and was not driven by any religious or political concerns the participants had
The actual riot was opportunistic and had little to do with the original meeting/protest led by the Scottish Protestant nobility in the form of Lord George Gordon. Again another example of imported whipped up sectarianism. This time from heavily Protestant Scotland

The papal decree on marriage "Ne Temere" 1908 which required a Catholic to marry in presence of a Catholic priest caused ill-feeling.

I come from an English mixed Catholic and High Church background but have never heard of this before, so can't really comment

I've wondered if the reason why the marriage of my Scottish Catholic 3xGGF to my English C. of E. 3xGGM at St. Ignatius R.C. church, Preston didn't happen until the end of the month of her 21st birthday, 2 years after birth of their 1st child, was parental objection due to folk memory of 2 Jacobite armies marching to Preston. Their 2 sons were baptised C. of E. The 2 daughters might have been R.C.  Great-granddaughters of Scottish 3xGGF were the trio who had 2 baptisms.

Or maybe 'folk memory' wasn't even considered, who knows? It's all speculation

[Maiden Stone]

19th century.
Campaign against restoration of Catholic hierarchy in England 1850. Riot in Birkenhead 1850. 
Birkenhead, disturbances in 1859, cause: a Catholic burial ground.
Murphy riots 1860s. Plymouth, Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Rochdale, Stalybridge. William Murphy was killed in Whitehaven by Irish miners.
'Garibaldi riots' 1862 provoked by campaign for reunification of  Italy. Disturbances in Hyde Park, London, and in Birkenhead. Protestant attacks on R.C. chapels Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield.
"The Birkenhead Garibaldi Riots of 1862" by F. Neal
https://hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/131-6-Neal.pdf