Author Topic: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?  (Read 1008 times)

Offline ruthruss

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Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« on: Friday 14 June 19 11:53 BST (UK) »
I have just found a feoffment from the Norfolk Record Office signed by the men and women of one generation of my ancestors (Dolmans) in 1696, granting the land to a John Pack and his heirs. Does this mean that they were wealthy landowners?

Text from what I can so far make out (image down below):
To all Christian people to whom this present writing shall come: wee Mary Collison alius Leak: John Dolman Jefferry Dolman Richard Dolman Mary Dolman alius Holtenly Ffrances Dolman Elizabeth Dolman Phebe Dolman James Pack off Heloughton in the county of Norfolk [jondeth?] [yoocking?] in our Lord God ever lasting: Know yee that wee the to Mary Collison: John [     ] John Dolman Jefferry Dolman Richd Dolman Mary Dollman Ffrances Dolman Elizabeth Dolman Phebe Dolman James Pack ffor and in consideration of the sume [sum] of thirteen pounds five shillings of Lawfful English money to us in hand paid by John Pack of Heloughtn in the county [      ] at or before the [fealing?] and delivery [         ] [presents?] the receipt wherof: wee the [said] Mary Collison John Dolman Jefferry Dolman Richd Dolman Mary Dollman Ffrances Dolman Elizabeth Dolman Phebe Dolman James Pack to give out our rights and [tilly?] that wee have now or ever shall have in the Above named messuage to the Above named John Pack and his heirs and wee do acknowledge by [thay?] [pruts?] and therof and of every [prt?] therof do hereby acquit exonerate the [said] John Pack his heirs executors and administrators as allso ffor [divers?] offered good cause and considerations us the said Mary Collison John Dolman Jefferry Dolman Richd Dolman Mary Dollman Ffrances Dolman Elizabeth Dolman Phebe Dolman James Pack thereunto especially moveing have [Alianr?] granted bargained [and?] [arttesttad?] and confirmed and by [             ] [doffuly?] clearly and absolutely Alien grant bargaine [                        ] and conffirme unto the [said] John Pack and the heirs of the [said] John Pack all that messuage or tenement situate and being in Heloughton Afforsd in the use of Mary Hellerby to gather with the yards homestall orchards [rasements?] comodities and appertanences thereunto [      ] or oppertaining or therwith used occupied or injoyed or [       ] taken and known as parts or all or member therof the [said] bargained [        ] one with Goodding had by indenture of graunt release and confirmation in writing: And wee the [said] Mary Collison John Dolman Jefferry Dolman Richd Dolman Mary Dollman Ffrances Dolman Elizabeth Dolman Phebe Dolman James Pack and our heirs the afforesd bargained [      ] with the appurtenances unto the use of the [said] John Pack and the heirs of the [said] John Pack ffor ever Against us the [said] Mary Collison John Dolman Jefferry Dolman Richd Dolman Mary Dollman Ffrances Dolman Elizabeth Dolman Phebe Dolman James Pack and our heirs will [sarvant?] and ffor ever defend by these [    ] In wittnes wherof wee have here unto jett our hands and [     ] this ffiveteenth day of September in the sixt year of the raigne of our sovereaigne Lord King William the third of England and in the yeare of our Lord God one thousand six hundred ninety six

The marks of John Dolman Jefery Richd Mary Collison Elizabeth Phebe James Pack Ffrances Dollman
Allen Batterby Rimmer Conroy Brigham Pierpoint Butcher Winnard

Offline Chilternbirder

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Re: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 14 June 19 15:33 BST (UK) »
Feoffment means the transfer of a freehold so they were land owners. How wealthy we don't know, disposing of the full rights in a property suggests that they might have been "cash poor".
Crabb from Laurencekirk / Fordoun and Scurry from mid Essex

Offline goldie61

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Re: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 14 June 19 23:11 BST (UK) »
The image you have posted is too small to zoom in to try and read clearly - it is only 82 kbs. You are allowed an image of up to 500 kbs here on Rootschat.

However, I have picked out most of the words you have been stuck on.

One is 'presents', which uses a contraction of 'pr' for the 'pre' prefix.
This can also stand for 'par', 'per', etc depending on context.

The first word you question is 'fealing'. This is 'sealing' - it uses the classic long 's' of this hand which looks like an 'f'.

I'll just jot down the missing or questioned words rather than write out the whole thing.

'rights and titles'

acknowledge by these p(re)sents and thereof and of every p(ar)t

divers I'd agree with

other good causes and considerations

especially moving have alienated granted bargained sold enfoffed* and confirmed these p(re)sents do fully clearly and absolutely Alien grant bargain sell enfoff*

bargained p(re)misses

In witness whereof wee have here unto sett our hands and seale


* I'd like to see these words more clearly, as it is very difficult to make the letters out - I think there may be another letter in there.

If you want to post any parts of this you are still unsure of, there is a special board here on Rootschat for that. You can always just crop parts of it instead of posting the whole thing - sometimes posting a whole document might contravene copyright, and the moderators may remove it.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/handwriting-deciphering-recognition/

It's a good idea to make any image you post as near to 500 kbs as possible, so it can be zoomed in on to be read clearly.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline ruthruss

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Re: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 14 June 19 23:29 BST (UK) »
Thanks so much 😀
Allen Batterby Rimmer Conroy Brigham Pierpoint Butcher Winnard


Offline goldie61

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Re: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 15 June 19 00:08 BST (UK) »
Thanks so much 😀

I've just found out from the moderator of this board, that the file size has been increased to 900kbs.
So that makes things even easier to see.  :)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 21 June 19 22:40 BST (UK) »
I have just found a feoffment from the Norfolk Record Office signed by the men and women of one generation of my ancestors (Dolmans) in 1696, granting the land to a John Pack and his heirs. Does this mean that they were wealthy landowners?

Text from what I can so far make out (image down below):
To all Christian people to whom this present writing shall come: wee Mary Collison alius Leak: John Dolman Jefferry Dolman Richard Dolman Mary Dolman alius Holtenly Ffrances Dolman Elizabeth Dolman Phebe Dolman James Pack off Heloughton in the county of Norfolk [jondeth?] [yoocking?] in our Lord God ever lasting: Know yee that wee the to Mary Collison: John [     ] John Dolman Jefferry Dolman Richd Dolman Mary Dollman Ffrances Dolman Elizabeth Dolman Phebe Dolman James Pack ffor and in consideration of the sume [sum] of thirteen pounds five shillings of Lawfful English money to us in hand paid by John Pack of Heloughtn in the county ...

Hello

A transfer of property for 13 & 5 Shillings (20 Shillings = 1 UK) by Feoffment, does not suggest those mentioned were wealthy. Sorry to disappoint.

A Feoffment was another document for the transfer of property, as stated in the other replies.

A 1765 Feoffment I saw, was a document which was also accompanied by a Conveyance, which referred to a Bargain and Sale for 19,000 for a Manor. Now he was wealthy as he also owned Manors and Lands in many Counties of England, plus some Lands and property in Wales and Ireland.

Feoffment
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/feoffment.aspx

 ----------

Feoffment with a Conveyance
The only person who usually got wealthy making both a Feoffment and separate accompanying Conveyance document to Convey (Transfer) the same property was the Solicitor, who probably earned his money by the word or the line.

I was a little amused when I found a Feoffment and a Conveyance to convey the same property  ;D  ;D  ;D

Mark

Offline goldie61

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Re: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 22 June 19 08:02 BST (UK) »
JUst looked at this again after this new post.

I looked again at the 2 words you queried at the start of line 4 on the document, after all the names of the parties concerned, and 'of Norfolk' at the end of line 3, (well, you have transcribed it as 'Norfolk' - you have actually cut this part off the image you posted).

You have transcribed then as ' [jondeth?] [yoocking?].
They say 'sendeth greeting'.

For future reference, it's always a good idea to keep to the lines of the original - that is, start a new line in your transcription when there is a new line in the document.
This makes it so much easier to go back and find a specific place in the document if you need to for any reason.
I have even seen large documents with the lines in the transcription numbered - so you can just count down to the place you need to refer to.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 22 June 19 15:38 BST (UK) »


especially moving have alienated granted bargained sold enfoffed* and confirmed these p(re)sents do fully clearly and absolutely Alien grant bargain sell enfoff*

 ...

* I'd like to see these words more clearly, as it is very difficult to make the letters out - I think there may be another letter in there.


Usually these Feoffment documents referred to being enfeoffed or to enfeoff, standard wording, so I am fairly confident these were the intended spellings, despite the image being partly unreadable.

 ----------

What might be more interesting for the original poster, is to see if the place where their Ancestors lived or held this property was a Manor and look to see if they Served on the Manor Court, or owed Suit to the Manor Court. Look in documents called Court Rolls or the Court's Baron of the local Manor. The Court Rolls were membranes usually affixed at the top by cord etc., and then usually rolled up.

Manor documents can be very useful for the Family Historian, because both Rented and Copyhold property might pass to a Son or other Relation and that is occasionally stated.

 ----------

My Ancestors were one of the Copyholders sometimes called Customary Tenants. A little bit like Freehold (you could inherit or sell/buy Copyhold), except that the transfer of Copyhold ownership was conducted by and registered in the local Manor Court.

I understand that when a Property Transfer took place at the Manor Court of my Ancestors, it was the Custom to hold a piece of Straw and my Ancestors were also Admitted to the Manor as Customary Tenants, the price was confirmed as paid to the Seller and the property ownership was then transferred to my Ancestor and it was entered on the Manor Court Rolls and signed by the parties at the Court.

Some Copyholders had to pay a Fine (if levied) at Transfer, usually being a fraction (percentage) of the property value. So if an Ancestor was recorded as paying a fine to the Manor, the Ancestor could simply be involved with a property Transfer.

Several of my Ancestor Family served on the 'Manor of Selby' Court and are listed as Jurors to that Manor Court.

Mark

Offline goldie61

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Re: Did only wealthy families grant feoffments?
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 22 June 19 22:58 BST (UK) »
Yes BushInn. Manor Court Rolls are great if you can find your ancestors in them.
Sometimes it's the only way to find them if the parish registers are scant, or to find them even beyond the start of parish registers. I managed to find my direct ancestors  at least a couple of generations further back into the 1500s in the rolls, than in the parish registers.
Sometimes it can be very difficult to find which manor the place they lived in came under.
One of my families could have been in any of three different manors, (parts of the place they lived in were owned by different people), at three different places of archives all over the UK!. It was very interesting trying to find them from the other side of the world!
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs