Author Topic: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??  (Read 2461 times)

Offline avm228

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #18 on: Monday 17 June 19 11:51 BST (UK) »
Sarah Ann Radford doesn’t have a mother’s maiden name indexed when I look at her?  If so she is likely to be someone else’s (probably illegitimate).
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline avm228

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #19 on: Monday 17 June 19 11:52 BST (UK) »
Actually I must be losing the plot. Now I have gone back I can't even see James Radford b. 1858 at all... weird

Have you set it to male rather than female?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline avm228

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #20 on: Monday 17 June 19 11:55 BST (UK) »
Actually I must be losing the plot. Now I have gone back I can't even see James Radford b. 1858 at all... weird

Have you set it to male rather than female?

Yikes. He has disappeared!  And is not on FreeBMD.  Perhaps he never existed and was a result of an indexing error for Fanny’s birth.  Does her birth certificate contain a time (as well as date) of birth?  This would be usual if she was a twin.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline avm228

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #21 on: Monday 17 June 19 11:59 BST (UK) »
For Caroline, just omit mother’s maiden name.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)


Offline ~Rachel~

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #22 on: Monday 17 June 19 12:20 BST (UK) »
Fantastic, thank you.

So it's all starting to make a bit more sense. Looks like Simon b. 1839 does not have mmn listed as his birth was registered in J qtr and Eliza and Simon did not marry until the D qtr of the same year.

Although I would have thought his name would have been his mothers maiden name if his parents weren't married?

So is a blank space under mmn always indicative of an illegitimate child?
Waite, Marchant, Nash, Goddard, Pocock, Hiles, Switzer, Larondie, Harris, Radford, Monger, Harper, Harris, Sixsmith, Fitzgerald.

Offline ~Rachel~

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #23 on: Monday 17 June 19 12:30 BST (UK) »
  Does her birth certificate contain a time (as well as date) of birth?  This would be usual if she was a twin.

Just dug it out again and nope definitely nothing time wise.
Waite, Marchant, Nash, Goddard, Pocock, Hiles, Switzer, Larondie, Harris, Radford, Monger, Harper, Harris, Sixsmith, Fitzgerald.

Offline avm228

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #24 on: Monday 17 June 19 12:51 BST (UK) »
No mmn is usually a sign of illegitimacy, because it means there is no "formerly" surname for the mother on the registration.  It is not a 100% guarantee though, as nothing applies 100% and sometimes details were recorded otherwise than you would expect. 

Simon's birth registration is an example of this - as you say, one would expect him to be registered either as Hannay (illegitimate) or untruthfully as Radford mmn Hannay if the parents presented as though already married. 

But it was 1839, in the early period of a civil registration system first introduced in mid-1837, so neither the registrars nor the public had really settled into it yet.  Incidentally it is in these early settling-in years that one very occasionally finds time of birth recorded for singleton births, but as practice developed this was only continued for twins and other multiple births as it might be important for inheritance purposes to know the order of birth.

Obviously you would need Simon's birth certificate in order to find out exactly how it was registered.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline ~Rachel~

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #25 on: Monday 17 June 19 13:44 BST (UK) »
Thank you once again for all your help. I have ordered Simon's birth certificate and the Hanney/Radford marriage certificate so will continue this in a week or so!
Waite, Marchant, Nash, Goddard, Pocock, Hiles, Switzer, Larondie, Harris, Radford, Monger, Harper, Harris, Sixsmith, Fitzgerald.

Offline ~Rachel~

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Re: Untangling surname confusion - Hanney or Allen??
« Reply #26 on: Friday 21 June 19 19:38 BST (UK) »
I received the certificate today confirming Simon b. 18 May 1839 is the son of Simon Radford and Eliza Henney. Eliza Henney signed her name to register the birth.

So as suspected his parents married after his birth.

I am still no clearer on finding what the Allen link (if it's not just a mistake) is but at least I know I am on the right track.
Waite, Marchant, Nash, Goddard, Pocock, Hiles, Switzer, Larondie, Harris, Radford, Monger, Harper, Harris, Sixsmith, Fitzgerald.