Court document 1665

[zenobia37]

Hi all,

I have been fortunate enough to acquire scans of a court case that one of my ancestors was involved in in 1665. Most of it is decipherable but there are a couple of phrases and terms I am struggling with. Can anyone help?

The first (Phrase 1) follows after the words 'the defendants favouring to themselves all manner of benefits and advantages'...

The second (Phrase 2) is in the context of money having been handed over to help parents care for their children on the understanding the children (now plaintiffs) would be bound as apprentices to improve themselves and their own ability to care for children, but the money not having been used for that purpose. It is followed by 'thereof to [the children's father and mother].

The third (Phrase 3) is from the end where the writer is running out of space on the page so it's unclear. It is preceded by the words 'not well and sufficiently answerable' (in relation to the claim itself).

If anyone who is more used to reading these than I can help I'd be most grateful. Then I'll be able to turn my attention to the various cover pages included which appear to be in latin!


Zen

[janan]

I think phrase 2 is

but left the sole managery(?) thereof unto

I could be wrong

[horselydown86]

#1:

...of Excepc(i)ons to the many Incertaintyes...

I would be fairly certain the word earlier is Saving rather than Favouring?

#2:

Agree with Janan.  Read as management or managing.

#3:

...Avoyded, Traversed or denyed is true...

This is a standard phrase from the closing lines of an Answer in Chancery.

[zenobia37]

Thanks very much to both of you, that's brilliant. The last one certainly makes sense as it is at the end of the document

[horselydown86]

#1:
I would be fairly certain the word earlier is Saving rather than Favouring?

I should also have mentioned Reserving as another word which might be used in this phrase.

Post a clip if you're unsure.

[zenobia37]

Thanks, I have attached the word as you suggest, and also another phrase from another page that I am struggling with, that has (I think) greek letters and I gather denotes one of the parties. Is that one you recognise by any chance?

[horselydown86]

In the first clip:  ...att all times hereafter saveing to themselves...

Clip #2:

...And for p(re)ferm(en)^t of yo(ur) Orato(ur)s his Said Childeren...

These aren't Greek letters.  They are marks indicating standard contractions and are very common in old writings.

The first instance replaces the letters re.  The second and third uses of the same symbol replace the letters ur.

It's determined by context.  You will get used to it fairly quickly.

There's no symbol for the _m(en)^t, beyond the t being written in superscript.

You are now reading the original Bill of Complaint*.  This is indicated by the use of the term your Orator, which is conventionally used by the plaintiff to describe himself.

* Your Orator is also found in another type of pleading called a Replication, used by the plaintiff to respond to the defendant's Answer.

ADDED:

Regarding the word Orato(ur)s, if there is only one plaintiff in this case (as I suspect) you should read the s as a possessive rather than a plural.

[zenobia37]

Thanks so much, that's great. It has helped me read the rest, and also now I know that there are some standard phrases used I've found a book on google books that has some of the template paragraphs in it, and that's clarified a few other things too.

There are a group of plaintiffs in this case; they are a group of siblings, one of whom is my 8x great grandfather, and as you say the document is the bill of complaint ( I started with reading the defendants response first as it turns out). It's a complicated case that involves various bonds and securities being exchanged by five different defendants and the plaintiff's father, so transcribing the documents is just the first challenge. Trying to fathom what went on and who won the case is going to be another! But getting to grips with these papers has already got me past a brick wall I've been stuck on for years so it means a lot understand it.

There are just few individual words now I'm unsure of, so I'm posting them here in case they are recognisable too.

[horselydown86]

...So left as aforesaid... 

...trusted for yo(ur) Orato(ur)s to pay...

...Certaine Lands...


Regarding the first two, do these readings fit with the context?  (I am sure of the third one.)

Note that these pleadings from TNA won't tell you the outcome of the case.  However, some Chancery final decrees can be found on this site:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT.html

If you're lucky you might find the final decree with a search on this WAALT Wiki page:

http://www.uh.edu/waalt/index.php/Main_Page

Search by the surname(s) involved.

However be aware that many Chancery cases didn't proceed as far as a resolution.

I'm on my way to bed now so I will have to leave any further questions to the board.